Round Table #2

[00:00:08.06] - Gordon Drayson
Welcome to FACE: The Podcast, the podcast and vidcast for children and family entertainers. And my name is Gordon Drayson, a full-time professional children's entertainer. And welcome. This is one of the episodes that I've had a lot of comments about from the previous one. It's our Roundtable, where we talk to the last three interviews that we've had, put them all together into a room, a Zoom room in this case, and we discuss topics that affect all of us. And we listen to all the different opinions that each of us have. Today, we're going to touch on topics such as, what do you do when you want to change your show? Do you change the whole show, or do you just take a trick out and put a new one in? And if so, how do you decide which one to do? We also listened to one of the failures that Kelly had where she was crying on the way home. What made her cry? Have a listen. You'll hear about it very soon. And we discuss other topics which are going to be of interest to a lot of people out there. And hopefully you'll pick up a few hints and tips and knowledge and experience from all of these people that you can then take into your business and your life and grow from the way that we have. So let's not talk about this any further. Let's just get straight into it. This is the FACE: The Podcast Roundtable number two.

[00:01:45.00] - Gordon Drayson
So welcome. We have Kerry Jay, we have Jelly Kelly, and we have Paul Longhurst. Welcome to our Roundtable. Thank you all for coming.

[00:01:55.03] - Kerry Jay
Thank you for having us.

[00:01:57.21] - Gordon Drayson
So just to let you know, if you don't already, the Roundtable is the idea of discussing things that affect children's entertainers and family entertainers, and getting different perspectives and different opinions from each of you. So let me kick this off by saying we are recording this early November. And so in the past, December was always the busy time for everybody. It's when you just were flat out, you were going from one show to another to another, you would easily have four or five shows in a day, especially at the weekends. So let me just ask you all, are you finding that that is the case for you at the moment, or have you changed and you've got now a busier month that's taken over from your December? Yeah, who wants to kick off?

[00:02:53.02] - Paul Longhurst
I'll go first.

[00:02:53.19] - Jelly Kelly
I don't mind. Oh, go on then, Paul.

[00:02:55.03] - Paul Longhurst
Thank you. So no, it's not worked. That's not me at all at the moment. I found that my Google advertising has doubled in cost. The amount that I was paying for keywords has doubled, and it's not bringing in the gigs at the moment at all. So my December is, it's going to be okay, but it's certainly going to look like a normal month, and it's not booked up yet, which is really rare for me.

[00:03:24.18] - Gordon Drayson
Yeah, I'm finding exactly the same as well. What about Kerry?

[00:03:29.10] - Kerry Jay
I'm pretty busy. I've been lucky enough to get a bit of a residency at Centre Parks, so I'm doing Brunch with Santa. I started that yesterday, which is every Tuesday and Saturday for November and December. So it's nice to have a regular midweek gig, which is lovely. And also it's table magic between courses and between meeting Santa and everything like that. But it is Saturday morning, which means I then rush to a party in the afternoon. And I think for most of November, December, I've got two parties on the Sunday as well. So with the odd balloon delivery as well midweek, and there's a few Christmas nursery shows and school shows leading up more December than November. It is slightly nuts for the next couple of months, but very quiet January so far.

[00:04:26.03] - Gordon Drayson
Good. You can come watch me in pantomime. That will be lovely.

[00:04:28.16] - Kerry Jay
Yay.

[00:04:29.18] - Gordon Drayson
What about Kelly?

[00:04:32.07] - Jelly Kelly
I've not got as many as I normally get. At the moment, I've got 13 gigs for December. And normally, I can do up to 30 in December, 40 some years. And So 13 is a big drop. Normally, I think last December, I earned £8,000 in December. And that's like, yeah, boom, that's done. I've paid my tax return with that. It's there. Everything's done with that money. And I got a bit of holiday. This year, it's a fairly normal month, really. And even in November, this weekend coming, I've only got three instead of four. Next weekend, I've only got two instead of four. Four is my normal minimum, two on Saturday, two on Sunday, always guaranteed. It's not a guarantee anymore. It really isn't.

[00:05:17.12] - Gordon Drayson
Yeah. It's weird how it is. It's really weird because way back, December was the month. But for me now, I'm finding that my July is the busiest month for me, which is so strange. I mean, it's lovely, but it's so strange. I think what's happened is the schools, I used to do lots of schools, and they've taken their December bookings and moved them to July for the end of the school year, because there's so much going on in December. I think that's what they're doing. They've got pantomimes coming in, or they've got Father Christmas or whatever it is.

[00:05:55.14] - Jelly Kelly
Yeah. I also think that there's a lot of clubs that aren't doing it as well, doing something on the cheaper side. I do working men's clubs. I've only got one of those in December. I normally have more than one. I've got a golf club, but normally I have more than one. It seems a lot of the clubs are holding back on spending because they're not getting the money coming in. I've got a friend who owns a pub and in the hospitality industry, and they're down nearly six grand a month, regularly at the moment, which is a lot. And so therefore, something's got to give, and putting on a party for the kids that'll only bring in a few extra quid just to make the punters happy, is one of those things that they're going to ditch. I've done a mail out and everything and I've hardly got anything back from it. It's like, "okay, interesting."

[00:06:36.23] - Gordon Drayson
It is very strange because also a lot of companies are laying people off, and we've just had the new budget, and there's new tax on employers now with the national insurance. So they can't seem to be getting rid of people and then spending lots of money at Christmas for something that maybe won't affect everyone. So, yeah, it's a weird situation. Say again, Paul.

[00:07:01.24] - Paul Longhurst
I would say we're a luxury, let's face it. We're not a necessity.

[00:07:05.02] - Kerry Jay
And also I think with the private school, 20% tax on private school, a lot of people at private school have that extra money who will maybe put on a party, it doesn't matter because money is an option. Now they're thinking, "maybe I don't need to do that. School fees have gone up massively." I think that could have affected it. Not that I just only work for private school. Thank God. What I said to say is not what you think about that. But I think that may be making a difference. All those little things all added up.

[00:07:36.22] - Gordon Drayson
Yeah. Have a big effect.

[00:07:38.19] - Jelly Kelly
It's not just one thing. It's lots of little things, I think.

[00:07:41.06] - Gordon Drayson
So it's something that Paul mentioned there, and I think fits quite nicely with what we're talking about here is that you do Google Ads. Personally, I don't currently have any advertising other than my website. So I've optimised that, and that's the only advertising I do. So what advertising do the rest of you do? And do you think that's affected bookings?

[00:08:05.09] - Jelly Kelly
Do you want me to go?

[00:08:05.24] - Gordon Drayson
Yeah.

[00:08:06.20] - Jelly Kelly
I don't do Google Ads. I do Yell Smart Performance through Yell, which will advertise on Google and Insta and Facebook and Bing. Depending on where people are typing in, "I need a children's entertainer in Surrey" or one of those keywords, it will throw my advert at them, and then it tracks them. So if they go into other sites, it might just pop up and remind them and show me there. They're like, "Oh, yeah." I found that worked really well for me coming out of lockdown, sorry, in lockdown, to get more work coming in for the virtual parties. I've kept it because it actually, I think, makes it a difference. And you can put in as much as you want each month. I put in the minimum. Because it's like I spend literally a party on advertising a month, a two-hour party on advertising to get the bookings coming in and the enquiries. But even those are quiet at the moment, even with Smart Performance. But they haven't put my price up, which is nice.

[00:09:03.10] - Gordon Drayson
That's a good thing. Yeah. What about you, Kerry?

[00:09:07.12] - Kerry Jay
I don't really. Well, I don't pay for advertising. Not really. I try and get the website optimised as much as I can. I find being on Google Maps very useful because obviously, if the little children's party Oxfordshire and that will pop up on the map where I am on the Google Maps.

[00:09:28.21] - Gordon Drayson
And you do get emails about that with stats, which is really useful. So it shows you how many people have viewed your listing on Google Maps and how many have clicked.

[00:09:37.14] - Kerry Jay
Oh okay, I didn't know that. I'll have to look into that.

[00:09:38.09] - Gordon Drayson
That's really good.

[00:09:39.14] - Kerry Jay
I'll have a look. Right.

[00:09:40.09] - Gordon Drayson
Google Local, it's called.

[00:09:42.15] - Kerry Jay
Oh, I'll have another look. I think now it's ringing a bell, so I'll have to look into that again. But I don't know. Because I do other things, if I have a quiet month, it's not the end of the world because I teach dance lessons as well. And I've I've got fingers in enough pies that if one area is a bit on... Yeah, not great, then the other area. So for example, you were talking about July being busy. It's actually not for me, not for parties. I tend to have more weekends where I can spend with my children in the summer. However, midweek, I've got wedding dance lessons, so I'm super busy with that. So it all works out. So I don't actually... I mean, I'm always the first to jump on Facebook. If somebody's looking for this, I'll keep an eye on Facebook and make sure my wording as a response looks professional with a link to my website and a photo of what's included rather than, some people will just tag themselves without saying anything about it. I'll make sure my response looks professional. I get notified a lot, I guess, the Facebook algorithm, whatever it is. If somebody is looking in my local I do tend to notice it in my feed and I'm able to respond. So I guess that's a form of time advertising rather than monetary advertising, I suppose.

[00:11:09.22] - Gordon Drayson
And again, if you respond to these things, you get shown more of them. So again, that's good for your business.

[00:11:15.18] - Kerry Jay
Yeah.

[00:11:16.10] - Gordon Drayson
What about you, Paul? You were talking about Google Ads. Do you do anything else? Does the Google Ads work for you?

[00:11:22.10] - Paul Longhurst
Yeah, Google Ads has worked really well for me. Like Kelly was saying, I spend about a two-hour party, just over a two-hour party a month. SEO, I'm more and more disappointed in Google search engines, actually. I loved the days when the advertising was to the right, so you had sponsored ads to the right of the screen, and the top SEO ones would come to the top of page one. And as Google has gone on and on, I think it's... Now it's all sponsored ads at the top. There's four or five sponsored ads, and I don't see SEO relevant ones at the top. And thinking about it, I don't think it's in Google's interest to do that as a business model. I think they want to sell more advertising rather than get SEO working. So for me, SEO isn't working. And Google Ads is because I'm buying into that model, as it were. Word of mouth is great. So I'll do one party in Peterborough, and then three months later, I'm in Peterborough for three months, and then I'll do one party in Oxford. And three months later, I'm in Oxford for a while. I tend to work in pockets like that.

[00:12:34.14] - Kerry Jay
Of course, you guys have advertising through your party invitations, don't you as well? Your branded party, digital invites. I guess that's all what you're branding on, which is something that you-

[00:12:46.02] - Jelly Kelly
Only if people actually use it. I don't give them out to everyone. It's just on my website. So if they book me, there's an invite that you can download and use. But I find a lot of people, I think, use their own invites. The kids like to print it out and write it out and have their theme. I don't know how often my invite gets actually used. Not that often. It's probably a bit rubbish. I might need to look at it again.

[00:13:06.19] - Gordon Drayson
Paul and I now have... I mean, I've got printed ones and I give people the option, "Would you like a printed one?" And I'll print all the details of the party on it so that they just have to write the name of the person they're inviting. So it makes it nice and easy for parents. But they also get the option of a digital invite. And that is a graphic image, again, that they can use for WhatsApp or whatever. And my son and I have created a whole system where you can have a page for that party, and the page will have the invite details. It'll have a little link to a Google map for the venue so that the people who are coming to the party can see where it is. It's got a little "add to my calendar" button so that the guests can put it in their calendars. It's got a "yes, we're coming," "no, we're not coming" little form. So it's a whole system for parents. And again, because it's going to my website and Paul it's going to his website, it's again a form of advertising because people now have our website addresses on their computers or their devices.

[00:14:16.12] - Jelly Kelly
Gordon, so what? You send out the digital invite to the client who then sends it to people, when they reply on it, it goes through your website? Is that what you mean?

[00:14:24.18] - Gordon Drayson
If they want to, yeah. So they get an image, which is a WhatsApp. It's just an image they can post on WhatsApp, but they also get a link to a personalised page for them. And that will have all the details of the party and then all these extra bits. And they can reply to the person who's holding the - the host of the party on that page as well.

[00:14:48.23] - Jelly Kelly
Where's the page? On your website?

[00:14:51.04] - Gordon Drayson
Yes. So I've got a whole system that automates the creation of this page, and it's all personalised for that. And if people go back to it afterwards when the party is finished, it will say, "the party is now over. I hope you had a really good time. If you're looking for your own party, here's my details."

[00:15:09.15] - Kerry Jay
Brilliant.

[00:15:10.09] - Gordon Drayson
So it's a really nice system.

[00:15:12.17] - Kerry Jay
Is that a piece of software that you sell, Gordon, as one of the packages, or is that purely yours?

[00:15:18.05] - Gordon Drayson
It's something that I developed, and then Paul had some ideas as well. And my son did all the coding for. And it's a it's a really good little system. I get lots of people coming back to me saying how much they like it and how much easier it makes their life. And that's the important thing for me.

[00:15:34.19] - Paul Longhurst
So is it sellable?

[00:15:36.11] - Kerry Jay
That's what I'm saying. I've got some of your software, so I've got your review software.

[00:15:41.23] - Jelly Kelly
I've got reviews, but I'd be quite interested in that.

[00:15:45.24] - Gordon Drayson
I need to look at it, because it is quite a lot of work to personalise it because, for example, it looks like my printed invites - got my picture on, et cetera, et cetera. And Paul's looks like his invite, et cetera, et cetera. So, there's quite a bit of - it's not just, "here's the link, go and put it on your website" type thing. It's more involved than that. But yeah, we'll consider it. I'll talk to my son and see what he thinks.

[00:16:11.24] - Jelly Kelly
I'll be interested for sure.

[00:16:13.22] - Paul Longhurst
I'll tell you something I've started doing at the end of my parties - I get the whole crowd together. I have a bunny in my party, so we have the birthday boy holding the bunny. Everyone's together in front of my banners in front of my set. The parents take a photo, and then I have a banner printed out saying, 'Thanks for coming to my party.' Then I suggest that the parent sends that photo to everyone who came to the party as a, 'Thanks for coming to my party,' email. But that way, everyone who came has got a picture of the birthday boy with a bunny and all of my advertising in it. So when the kid comes back and says, "I had the best time," I'm easy to get hold of.

[00:16:57.21] - Kerry Jay
I do actually have a moment during the party after the cake, everybody gathers in front of my banner for a photo with the birthday child, and all parents are invited to take a picture. So it's not like the parent has to worry about sharing other children's photos. Because the majority of people... So when I first started, I found that from age five even, the minute they hit school, parents tended to drop off quite a lot and go and do the shopping and come back. Whereas after Covid, I found now they hang around an awful lot more. And they're older as well. It's only when they hit eight, nine that parents tend to drop off. And I don't do that many of that age group. So the majority of parents are there. And if they want to grab a quick picture. So usually at that moment after the cake where everybody is in front of my banner, they can take a picture and hopefully stay on their phone.

[00:17:58.19] - Jelly Kelly
I don't have a banner. I've never had a banner.

[00:18:01.08] - Kerry Jay
You've got backdrops, though, haven't you? You've got branding. I can see your branding from here.

[00:18:06.11] - Jelly Kelly
That's virtual. That's from lockdown, that was. No, all I've got is a tablecloth with Jelly Kelly written on.

[00:18:13.20] - Kerry Jay
But it's still there, it's still in the photo.

[00:18:16.22] - Gordon Drayson
I think that's one of the big reasons for having a banner. I know that there's lots of people, Kimmo springs to mind, who really don't like banners, but for-

[00:18:26.01] - Kerry Jay
Kimmo doesn't need to advertise.

[00:18:28.11] - Gordon Drayson
No, well, he doesn't, you're right. But for publicity purposes, it's really good. And here's a little tip for you, which I have been doing forever now. If you've got a little postcard with your details and your photo and everything on, which a lot of us have, one of the things that if I've got the time, it's not always something I have the time for, but if I've got the time at the end of the show, I'll say, "oh, there was someone who was asking if they could get my autograph at the end. I can't remember who you are, but if you'd like to come and see me at the end, I'm more than happy to let you have my autograph." And all the other kids go, "What? We can get an autograph? That's great." And all of a sudden you're a mini celebrity and you just give them your little postcard, you write your name on it, you give it to the kids.

[00:19:13.13] - Gordon Drayson
And I guarantee that will be on the fridge or it will be on the bedroom wall for a period of time. I think the most I've ever had is when a young six-year-old girl kept it on her wall until she was a mum, and she then booked me for her daughter's birthday party, and she got that from the signed photo that she had on her wall. Just unbelievable. But it makes you a sort of a mini celebrity.

[00:19:40.06] - Jelly Kelly
I like that. I give out a badge with "Jelly Kelly thinks I'm Jellytastic" on with a photo of me, to the birthday child. And I had one kid recently, I went to see... Because I know his mum from school, so I hadn't seen him for years. She's just got over cancer. And he's now bigger than me. Beard, hair. I mean, he's only... What is he? 16? But he looked like he was 30. Anyway, he was 16. He's like, "Oh my God, I remember you, Jelly Kelly. You gave me a badge. I've still got it." I went "have you?" but from about twelve years ago. He was like, "Yeah, I'll go and get it. It's in my safe."

[00:20:15.05] - Gordon Drayson
How wonderful.

[00:20:16.12] - Jelly Kelly
He went into his room and he went into his safe and he brought back one of my early badges, one of my first ever badges. And I said to him, "Oh, can I ask why you kept it in your safe for this long?" And he went, "Well, you told me it would be worth a lot of money one day." Of course, it's just a gag that I use every time. But he took me dead seriously. Dead seriously. It's been in his safe for the years.

[00:20:38.01] - Gordon Drayson
It's his investment for his retirement. That's what it is.

[00:20:41.01] - Jelly Kelly
I think that was one of the cutest things I've ever heard. I did laugh.

[00:20:43.23] - Gordon Drayson
That is so nice.

[00:20:45.19] - Gordon Drayson
So I've got a little question for you. We've got here two female performers and two male performers. So, I'd be interested to know how each of us think being either male or female affects the bookings or the way that we do our shows and maybe how people view us, because a lot of parents who drop off kids are mums, normally. I mean, it's not always, but a lot of them are mums. And so I'm wondering if when they get there and they see that there's a female performer, if that changes their perception of what they're expecting or not. I mean, have you got any experience with this that would help? Yeah, go. Tell us, Kelly.

[00:21:31.23] - Jelly Kelly
Quite often I get bookings with people saying, "We only want a female." They're adamant that they only want a female performer, an entertainer with their young children. Sometimes it's a man or a woman who could book me saying that as well, or that their daughter only wants a girl, but quite often it's the parent who only wants a female just because, unfortunately, more often than not, if you're a paedophile, you're a man. Therefore, mums have got that stigma of, "Why would a man want to work with children?" in their head, which is so wrong because I know wonderful entertainers who are great and dads themselves. They've got nothing at all in that direction about them. Yet because they're a man, they might not get as many bookings as from the people who only want a female performer, especially-

[00:22:18.24] - Kerry Jay
I actually saw that on a Facebook forum the other day. An entertainer, we all know, I'm not going to say the name, but he was advertising his children's entertainment business, and he got a few comments of literally saying, "Oh, you put this on your dating profile, do you?" He was like, "Err, No!"

[00:22:34.20] - Kerry Jay
I think Jimmy Saville did more damage than we realised. Are we allowed to say Jimmy's name on this podcast?

[00:22:43.17] - Gordon Drayson
Too late now.

[00:22:44.04] - Jelly Kelly
Because he was for the kids. Yeah, it's was too late now. It's out there now. But I do think as a female, that's one of my USPs, which I know annoys a lot of men. "You shouldn't advertise you're a female entertainer. What's the difference?" Tough. I've got tits. I'm going to use them.

[00:23:00.04] - Kerry Jay
And use them well.

[00:23:02.05] - Jelly Kelly
Flaunt it.

[00:23:03.08] - Paul Longhurst
So have I but I don't...

[00:23:04.12] - Kerry Jay
I don't think it has...I don't know that it does put for me so much. The other entertainers in my area are predominantly male, but more just different in style. So they're like the, "Oh, bend over and pick that up," that sort of humour, which is very much not me.

[00:23:28.08] - Jelly Kelly
I do that!

[00:23:29.23] - Kerry Jay
Exactly. That's your style. Not quite that crude, but yeah, you've got your... I think in some ways my style is more similar to Gordon and your style is more similar to Paul in that you got the brash... The energy. And I think I'm different from other entertainers in my area in that way rather than the fact that I'm female.

[00:23:56.02] - Jelly Kelly
I've got a friend who's now retired called Billy Bonkers. I can say his name.

[00:24:02.11] - Gordon Drayson
What's his stage name?

[00:24:05.11] - Jelly Kelly
He would say to me, because he was an old boy, so he'd been doing it for many, many, many years. And he said it got to the point where society had changed and people's opinions were changing on male entertainers. We're going about 15 years, at least, here, this conversation I had with him. And he said, he now gets awkward. The kids would want to hug him because they love him, because he's a lovely guy. He's a wonderful man, really great with kids and not a paedophilic bone in his body. I can promise you that. But the kids would come up and hug like they do. And he'd literally have his hands up.

[00:24:40.12] - Kerry Jay
That's really sad.

[00:24:41.10] - Jelly Kelly
Whereas I go down and I hug them back. I'm swarmed by them. I'm "come here, come here," I can kiss them and hug them. No one bats an eye because I'm a female. If a man did that, the mums will be like, "Do you see him? He was hugging the girls."

[00:24:54.12] - Kerry Jay
Yeah, that's sad.

[00:24:55.03] - Jelly Kelly
That is very, very sad. And unfortunately, it's because enough men have done horrible things to children that us as parents and mothers are wary of the men in this, dare I say, patriarchal world we live in. I'm going to get all feminist now.

[00:25:11.23] - Kerry Jay
I don't ever offer a hug. I think it's nice if they do. If they really come in for a hug, I will hug back. I'll offer a high five. If the high five comes from me offering the high five first, then the hug doesn't tend to follow because we've done the high five.

[00:25:31.13] - Jelly Kelly
There's nothing better than at the end of the party, one kid comes up to hug you, and you're like, "oh, I love a hug." Then suddenly you've got 25, 30 kids mob-hugging you, and you can't stand. They're dragging you to the floor because there's so many of them, and you feel like... What's that scene in a "Pet Detective." "Ohhhhh." And the animal has come to Jim Carrey. I'm a bit like that. I'm like, "Ohhhhh," as these children just hugging me. But I know that's because I'm a female. I can happily do that and accept that. and I do think without any judgement from anyone. That's the difference. I can happily accept that without getting any judgement from some snooty mum who's thinking the worst.

[00:26:09.19] - Gordon Drayson
And you know what? It's always the child that you've potentially had the most trouble with during party that's the one that comes up at the end and says, "Thank you, I really enjoyed that," or gives you a high five or gives you a cuddle. And you think, "So they did enjoy it? Why were they making my life so difficult?"

[00:26:27.16] - Jelly Kelly
Well you've heard from the girls here. Paul's been very quiet on this about his opinion. Paul?

[00:26:32.18] - Paul Longhurst
Yeah, it's interesting because I don't think about it like that at all. I'm probably not careful enough. If a child wants to hug me, I make sure it's very public and I make sure it's them that's initiated it, but I'm happy to hug back as long as I know that everyone can see me and I'm doing that. Really, I love my job. I love of entertaining kids. I just love it. I think it'll be really difficult for anyone to watch my show or watch what I do and think that I'm in it for anything else. This is the story I'm telling myself about this anyway. So, if a child wanted to hug me, I think, one of my early shows, a kid wanted to have a photograph taken with me, and the parent wasn't there for me to ask. So I said, "I can't. She's not allowed to. I can't." And that kid cried and cried and cried. That was a very early gig for me, and it hit me quite hard. And I thought, "Do you know what? Actually, is it worth those tears? Are we just going to take a sensible decision on this and just do it?" Yeah, so I don't know. I think it's more complicated. I'm making it very simple. But I've never had a problem, and I think it's just because I've got a sensible approach to it. The other problem is I'm quite big and quite brash and loud and chaotic. Kids generally have that approach back to me. So, if they want to hug me, they run in for the hug.

[00:28:16.17] - Jelly Kelly
Yeah, snap, that's what I get. I don't get asked. Its boom!

[00:28:17.20] - Paul Longhurst
Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah. So, as soon as that door opens a little bit, you're right. It's like, boom. I always start every show I do with... "There's lots of rules, and some of them are silly, but the main one is you can't touch me." And some kids will try it because that's the big, big rule. But at the end, if someone wants to hug... That's very clear, everyone hears that. But at the end, if they want to hug me, I'm going for it. I'm not. If someone wants to try and sue me for it or give me a bad name for it, that's their problem. Maybe that'll hit me.

[00:28:56.03] - Jelly Kelly
It's getting more PC, isn't it, the world? Some of the jokes I used to do as well. And I used to get guaranteed laughs in the room. Absolutely everyone cracking up kids, adults. Well, the jokes for the adults, those sort of jokes I'm talking about. And now you'll get the laugh, but not everyone's laughing. Not everyone. Where before it was everyone. Now it's a few of you going, "ooh, it's a bit..."

[00:29:18.22] - Gordon Drayson
I had a situation recently, which I spoke to Paul about, where I did my normal show and I got an email from one of the guests, one of the mums, who said, "really I enjoyed your show until you said this, and that's just not acceptable." And I was thinking, "wow, okay, but I've always said that, and I've never had anyone say anything." And just because they don't say anything doesn't mean that they're all approving of it. But it made me really think carefully about that particular... I'll tell you what it was. It was during the games, I'm looking for someone, I play a game with numbers, and they all get out of order. I'm looking one of the parents to put them all back in order for me. And so I look at the children, I say, "Put your hand in the air if your mum's really clever," and they all put up their hands. "Right okay, so does your mum go to work or just sit around at home all day watching TV?" And they go "she goes to work." "Okay, right. Lovely." And that's what I got called out on. It's like, you can't suggest.

[00:30:24.11] - Gordon Drayson
She said "she knows it's a joke, but there are some people there that..." She was complaining on behalf of other people, not her. "There are some people there-"

[00:30:33.20] - Jelly Kelly
Yes. That the other guests might think of what you've said.

[00:30:36.15] - Gordon Drayson
Yeah, exactly. And it made you think, "okay, right. Well, just because I've been saying it forever doesn't mean that it's acceptable now." And so I've started thinking about every single thing I say and analysing it and working out. And it's really difficult because humour is such a subjective thing. And you can find one group of people who will find something you say extremely funny, and you can say exactly the same thing to another group, and they just won't find it funny at all. It's about reading the room and knowing who's there and what you can say and what you can't say. But it's getting more difficult, I find.

[00:31:12.02] - Paul Longhurst
I misgendered a kid for a whole routine. I misgendered a kid for a whole routine the other day. The kid was up on stage with me for about twelve minutes, and I kept saying he... Sorry, no, I kept saying she. And it wasn't, at the end I said, "Give her a big round of applause." And the mum was going, "He's a boy!" It was full Halloween makeup, flowing blonde hair. I had no chance. I can't remember what the name was, but it was a name which could have been either. Sam.

[00:31:42.10] - Gordon Drayson
Yeah.

[00:31:42.17] - Paul Longhurst
It was something like that. I mean, hair, half It's way down his back. It's forgivable, but yeah-

[00:31:51.14] - Kerry Jay
Tell me sooner.

[00:31:52.10] - Paul Longhurst
What do you do?

[00:31:53.00] - Jelly Kelly
Yeah, take us back 15 years and they would have laughed at the gender misidentification. Now it's like, "[gasp] Hang on, you haven't got the pronouns right!" It's like "oh shut up!"

[00:32:02.24] - Paul Longhurst
That's all I did. I just went "Silly me. Sam, I can only apologise."

[00:32:10.16] - Jelly Kelly
It's even in comedy clubs, though. It's not just kids' entertainers. If you go to stand-up comedy nights now. And the comedians are not as risqué with the comedy like they used to be at all. They daren't be. And that's a shame.

[00:32:23.15] - Kerry Jay
But I never used to find that funny.

[00:32:25.24] - Jelly Kelly
But it's more about being able to approach sensitive subjects in comedy to get it out there, to be talked and discussed, and to diffuse the seriousness of it, to try and make it; with comedy, make people aware of how stupid it is to do that, or with a comedy. And I'm finding, even in stand-up, when I go see stand-up, I'm like, "oh." And some still do, but there's so many now that... And we're not just talking rude, Kerry. I'm talking about racism. I'm talking about sexism. I'm talking about anything. Everyone's so careful what they're saying so they don't offend, that you're losing the funniness of being able to offend in a brilliantly funny way. So it takes the power out of that offence as comedy.

[00:33:09.13] - Kerry Jay
I don't know. I'm on the fence with it. I saw an old Robin Williams sketch, no not sketch, a stand-up the other day, and it was a lot more offensive than I... I put it on because I thought-

[00:33:22.24] - Jelly Kelly
Who's one?

[00:33:24.01] - Kerry Jay
Robin Williams, who I thought was lovely. And it was actually really offensive, and I didn't find it funny. I put it on to show my kids this brilliant comedian. And I was actually, "oh, that's really unkind." I didn't find it. I don't know. Maybe I'm a little bit more sensitive, but I mean, going back, Gordon, to your, "does your mum sit at home all day?" My kids genuinely thought I did because I didn't go out to work, because I worked from home. But for years, my kids genuinely. Even my partner thought I did nothing at home.

[00:33:56.05] - Gordon Drayson
Well, that's why I ask, because when you ask children something, I mean, if they say, "no, they go to work" and you say to a child, "Oh, do they? What do they do?" Kids don't know. They just go... The number of times I say to a kid, "What does your mum do?" "Stuff." "Oh, right. Okay, that's good." Sometimes they'll know the specific name and job title. Other times they go, "Yeah, they work at a shop." You say, "Oh, right. Okay." And then you find out they're the manager of a John Lewis or something. It's not quite what you think. But it's really funny. It's one of these places where you can improv and go with it and find it funny.

[00:34:36.06] - Paul Longhurst
So, can I ask then? I think this is a really interesting thing to talk about. Are we performing to give the kid the best party that kid's ever had? Are we performing so the mum gets the feedback from the other mums that that was the best party they've been to? Are we doing kid focussed? Who are we entertaining here?

[00:34:56.06] - Jelly Kelly
Both.

[00:34:57.05] - Gordon Drayson
For me, kids. Kids first for me every time.

[00:35:00.02] - Jelly Kelly
Yes.

[00:35:00.11] - Gordon Drayson
I sell it as "this is going to be one of the parties they'll talk about for a long, long time, and I'm going to try and make it as easy as I possibly can for the parents, as stress-free as possible." So that's a secondary for me. It's the kids, they're the important one for me.

[00:35:17.00] - Kerry Jay
No, we had that discussion briefly the other day when I saw you, Paul. Are you trying to sell the perfect Instagramable party to a parent or are you trying to... And you said you even thought about asking the parents, "do you want this for the kid or for you?" We know they're all going to say for the kid, but how true that actually is.

[00:35:39.06] - Jelly Kelly
Saying that...

[00:35:40.01] - Paul Longhurst
They definitely want it for them. Definitely.

[00:35:42.18] - Jelly Kelly
A couple of weekends ago, I had the most hideous experience of my whole career. I've never had anything like this happen to me ever. It left me reeling with upset. This mum had done a birthday party for her six-year-old boy. Put on way too much. She had booked me to do two hours, but said that she wanted to do the first hour and a half in this little outside room. Then they go into the big hall, they got inflatables, candyfloss, popcorn. They've got, you name it turning up, another balloon twister coming. They had so much planned. It was obscene. So I turn up, I can't even get in to the car park because the car's blocked to block me in. Finally, at ten to, the grandmother comes to move the car, so open up the car park. I'm like, "now I can get in. I've got 10 minutes to set up." Nobody was there. I was going in the hall, "Hello, hello." It's all set up. No one's there. I'm now like, I've got 10 minutes.

[00:36:33.04] - Paul Longhurst
It's only a tablecloth, though, Kelly.

[00:36:35.20] - Jelly Kelly
It's a bit more than a tablecloth. But people start arriving on time and a bit early. Still no parent, haven't seen her yet. About a quarter past, in the past, 15-ish, 20 minutes into the party, finally she arrives with the birthday boy. So I start the show as quick as I can, knowing the timings are tight with what she's told me. She's stayed in. She's looking down. So there's this little bit up over the entrance and then a disabled ramp. There's an upper bit, and she was looking down. She stayed there with all her family, looking down on all the guests and the children, watching me. She was watching them, watching me, like the queen. She had this horrible energy about her. Anyway, I'm doing the show. It's all going well. Keeping the focus. There's 50 kids plus adults in this small room. It's quite an obscene amount of people to invite as well. And I was doing a bloody good job in the environment I was in, if I say so myself. I'm on I'm time. I've got 25 minutes left before the end of my show. I'm on the bit where I'm doing a cup and ball, chop cup, and they've got to guess where the ball is three times in a row without getting it wrong, and I'll magic them as sweet. About to get the birthday boy up with his friends to do that bit with me. This bit is not up with me. Doing it. I'm getting to the third reveal, and the kids are like, "Are they waiting? Are they going to get the sweet or not?" And she goes, the tea in her hands, "time out, time out." Right at this moment, right at this moment, time out. And I was, Oh. And I went, "Sorry." And don't forget, I've got a headset mic, so I can't take the mic away. I didn't think to turn it off and go over to her. That's a hindsight thing for me this is. And I went, "Sorry, you want me to stop now?" And she went, "I think they need a break." When I looked at the audience, looking at me, focused. Every single one was focused on what I was doing. I hadn't lost a soul. I went, "What now?" And I was a bit like that, "What now?" Went, "Err, do you want me to...

[00:38:25.15] - Kerry Jay
Can I finish the trick?

[00:38:26.18] - Jelly Kelly
Can I finish the trick? And she went, "Yeah, but I think we need a 10 minute break."

[00:38:30.02] - Kerry Jay
I went, "Do you want me to do the birthday cake trick with your son?" And she was like, "We just need a break." "So I'll finish the trick?" And she went, "yes." And it was very awkward, really awkward. So I finish the trick. I've then said to the audience, "Well, we just going to have a break now. I have no idea why, but we're having a break now." There you go. And I just stopped the show. She's then come up to me and said, "Kelly, I'd like a word with you." And she took me into this room, which is all glass windows, to where everyone is sitting and watching, looking through the windows now. And she's had a go at me in this room about how I've made her look stupid, how in front of the guests, how blah, blah, blah. Then she accused me of picking on an autistic child in the audience. Which I hadn't. I work with special needs. I have done for years. I know what I'm doing. This kid, he was in ear defenders, and he'd spent the first 5, 10 minutes of the party screaming like he didn't want to be there. He was happy. He was calm because I was keeping the noise to a decent level for him, and for everyone, and for me.

[00:39:31.05] - Kerry Jay
And she and her crowd behind her up on the little upper area looking down on us and started to get noisy. At one point, I said, "Guys, guys, please, please. Can we keep the noise down? I want to keep the noise down for everyone, especially him." Because I was recognising he was calm, he was happy. Let's keep it that way. Apparently, I've singled him out, and she had to go at me about that. And then I said, "Okay." She goes, "So what are we going to do about this, Kelly? You haven't even apologised to me yet." And I was like, I was flabbergasted. I was like, "I don't know what I need to apologise for. You stopped my show. I was doing well." And I was like, "I'm sorry if you think that way. What do you want me to do?" I said, "I can carry on making balloons for everyone in the time that's left. She said, "no, I don't think that's right." And I said, "well, I can leave if you want me to." And she went, "yeah, how much do I owe you?" So I gave her my price and I said, "take £100 off. And I'll go now."

[00:40:18.05] - Jelly Kelly
I thought, I just want out of here. Even though I was every right to say, "give me the whole money, you stopped my show." You can't in that sort of situation, can you? Don't want to get a bad review. And she was one of the bitchy mums. Anyway, I left. I cried on the way home. I felt so awful, so shat upon by this woman, and so nasty, and the way she'd dealt with it, and so unfair. It was the unjustness at the moment. And then the next morning, I get an email off her, demanding more money back because I didn't do the half-time, because I didn't do my USP of the birthday trick. Like I promised. She'd stopped my show! And it was just I couldn't believe that I'd had that experience from a mum. And getting back to why I mentioned that, the party wasn't for her son. It was for her.

[00:41:04.05] - Jelly Kelly
And when I'd finished, instantly, popcorn and candy floss machine people were setting up right where my show was. That's what she wanted, the next bit coming on that she'd organised. She'd organised too much. She wanted me to stop then. And that was it. But she blamed me and then demanded money back because I apparently... But I was a bit snippy with her in the show, I must admit. I should have turned my mic off and walked over to her and said, "Sorry, do we have a problem. Okay, I'll just finish this then." And I should have done it like that, but I didn't. I was like, "What now?" I looked at the kids and looked at the audience, looked at her and went, "Now?" And I was like, I'm like, "You bitch." I think my eyes probably said what I was thinking, to be fair. But it was just horrible. And that was one of those mums, just one of those mums. It's all about her.

[00:41:46.03] - Kerry Jay
How did you respond to the email?

[00:41:48.14] - Jelly Kelly
I rang Equity actually, and got their advice. And Equity said I never should have given her any money off. She owes me the full amount. Don't give her anymore. But I thought, "you know what? I've got hundreds of five-star reviews, not one bad review. I don't want a bad review." Even though it makes probably more realistic to people that one person doesn't like me. I don't want that. And I thought for the fact that she was asking for an extra 50 quid. Bear in mind she spent thousands on this party and paid me out a wad of cash that was bigger than my whole handbag. She wanted 50 quid back. So it's all about a power thing for her. And I thought, "you know what? If I don't pay her, she's going to badmouth, she's going to review, it's going to get nasty." She's, I think, quite a narcissistic woman. And we're dealing with a narcist, the best thing to do is walk away. So I said, "There's your money. And I said, I'm going against my union's advice. I'd like you to please sign that you will not be asking for any more money. That's it. You're happy with the agreement. Best of luck in the future." You can edit that bit out. Sorry, I didn't say that to her. Sorry. I'm sorry. That was what I was thinking. I didn't write that. I didn't write that to her. I just, as I sent an email, I was like, and I sent it with a swear in my mouth, not on the email.

[00:43:00.08] - Gordon Drayson
I think I might have countered that with, "well, actually, seeing as you've brought up money, I've spoken to Equity, and they've told me I need the full money, so I'd like to request the full money, please."

[00:43:14.09] - Jelly Kelly
Yeah, but then I want to started the war.

[00:43:15.17] - Gordon Drayson
I know. But then you've got something to barter with. "Look, I tell you what, I won't ask for the full money, but I'm not giving you anymore. Let's just agree that that's that."

[00:43:25.24] - Jelly Kelly
And I thought about doing that, Gordon, but I also know with this person, I I was inviting a war, and all I wanted to do was get it behind me and get that horrible feeling that was on my shoulders and around me, that her aura was still all over me with it. I needed to let that go. And I thought, "you know what, 50 quid, not a lot of money, really, to get someone to jog on, is it?" And I've got my own sanity and peace of mind now. I'm like, "yeah," and she hasn't left a bad review, so job done. I'm sure she badmouths me to everyone she speaks to, but let her crack on.

[00:43:56.13] - Gordon Drayson
Yeah. She gets put on the...

[00:44:00.06] - Kerry Jay
Blacklist.

[00:44:00.10] - Gordon Drayson
The blacklist, yeah, exactly.

[00:44:02.17] - Jelly Kelly
Even some of the parents came up to me and I was packing away and I was quite upset. And they were like, "what's going on? We were really enjoying your show?" I went, "yeah, I'm going."

[00:44:13.17] - Gordon Drayson
That's the sort of person that she is.

[00:44:15.15] - Jelly Kelly
I packed up and left.

[00:44:17.11] - Kerry Jay
Want a good show, you can book me.

[00:44:20.04] - Gordon Drayson
Just don't invite them.

[00:44:24.03] - Kerry Jay
Yeah.

[00:44:25.06] - Jelly Kelly
Terrible. Anyway, so there you go. That spun off the back of your comment on, is it for the parent or the child?

[00:44:30.19] - Gordon Drayson
Yes. So for you, what is it? For you, is it the child or the parent?

[00:44:35.04] - Jelly Kelly
The whole experience, it's everyone, because I'm a family entertainer, not a kids entertainer.

[00:44:40.03] - Gordon Drayson
Okay.

[00:44:40.17] - Jelly Kelly
For me, it's everyone. It's the kids and adults. It's the whole room. I will give joy, laughter, and wonderful memories to everyone in that room. That's my purpose.

[00:44:48.04] - Gordon Drayson
I think the question is more, do you focus on the children or do you focus on the booker as opposed to the adults in the room? So is it the booker that you're trying to impress/entertain, or is it the child?

[00:45:01.12] - Jelly Kelly
The booker is in the audience, so therefore it's included.

[00:45:04.00] - Gordon Drayson
Okay.

[00:45:04.08] - Jelly Kelly
It's everyone. It's literally everyone in that room.

[00:45:07.13] - Gordon Drayson
I think that's pretty much how it should be. For me, if it's a children's birthday party, it's definitely the birthday child first.

[00:45:15.02] - Jelly Kelly
Oh, yeah. They're the star of the show.

[00:45:15.16] - Gordon Drayson
That's the number one priority. But everyone else will enjoy it. And it's quite funny, actually, because when you say to them on the phone, if you've got the parents who are staying, we can have them join in. And you get the people saying, "oh no, I don't think they're going to want to watch the show. It's for children, isn't it?" I say, "Well, it's a family show. So it's going to be fun for everyone." And I try and engineer that. So at the end of food, I do the magic show. So I get all the parents to grab the chairs and come and sit behind the children so that they're not going to be talking. And the number of times people come up and say, "Do you know, I think I enjoyed that more than the children did," which is great to hear because it just shows that you are doing a family show.

[00:45:59.14] - Jelly Kelly
Well, I do that at the beginning with the booker before. At the point of booking, I'm like "I'm a family entertainer." And when I send them my bits, "I'm going to see you this weekend. I'll arrive this time, blah, blah, blah. Please set the room like this." And I tell them, "I need space. I need the parents, chairs for parents, kids will sit on the floor in front of them." Because I start with my magic show. I know I'm a different to most entertainers; I start with that. So therefore I want the room set like that at the beginning. And then when parents come in, I give them time to chat whilst I do some warm up games. Then I sit them down. I get them to join in straight away. I don't give them a choice. "You can watch if you want." No, there is no choice. "If you're in this room, you're joining in. Otherwise, it's not raining." And I will say that. It's not raining. And I point to the... "Off you go."

[00:46:45.09] - Kerry Jay
That's a great line. I'm going to steal that.

[00:46:48.09] - Jelly Kelly
You're here to join in. And one of the first things I say as I start the show is, "Grownups, you wouldn't go to a pantomime and chat through it, would you? Oh, no, you wouldn't. Oh, yes, you would." And then I'll say to them, "Grown-ups, don't ruin little Jimmy's birthday." And I do it quite like... And the parents go, [gasp] and then laugh. And they laugh because they know they do. They all know it. They all know it on some level. And I say, "I'm funny. I do comedy clubs and adult shows. Will you join in?" They go, "yeah." And I go, "with enthusiasm!" And they're like, "yeah!!" "And I'm going to hold you to that." And then I just get on with the show. So I set up at the beginning of the show, my premise. If you're in this room, you're joining in, if you're chatting, you're ruining it for the birthday child, you're ruining their birthday. And it does work. But you still do get parents and I'll stop, "Wait wait wait, oi, oi, it's going to get you in trouble." And I'll carry on. I'll call them out. I'll call them out. Because if they start, people next to him will start, and then you've lost the room, then you've lost the focus. So as soon as I see someone chatting, and even dad's at the back, "Oi, oi! Get him, and nudge him, nudge him." And suddenly, he goes "She's just trying to talk to you." "You, oi. No, no. I'm not having that." And then I just carry on.

[00:48:12.01] - Gordon Drayson
And I wonder if being a female saying that is very different to me or Paul saying it.

[00:48:17.15] - Jelly Kelly
I think it is. It's probably less aggressive. And I do do it very firmly, but in a fun, cheeky way. And I think because of my character, and who I am, it's not really a character; Jelly Kelly is just me with an outfit on. But I think I can get away with that because of the way I am and come across. I don't think... That's my style. That's the word I'm looking for. My style is that. I think if you're all like, "La la la, I'm a lovely entertainer. Oi Shut up!" It's not going to work. But I'm not one of those la-di-da-di-das. I'm already out there fronting it quite heavily. So therefore, I think I can get away with that almost humour. It's serious, though, when I'm doing it. I'm like, I'm not having it. It annoys me. I think it's very rude when people talk during the show, and it ruins it for the kids, and it ruins it for me. It puts my focus off. It puts my flow off.

[00:49:12.02] - Paul Longhurst
It's also very demeaning for us, right?

[00:49:13.20] - Jelly Kelly
Yes.

[00:49:14.04] - Paul Longhurst
Because what they're saying is, "Oh, with that child minder's over there, we're going to-"

[00:49:18.23] - Jelly Kelly
My show's not important enough to watch. How very dare you? Give me a chance. Give me a chance. That's all I want. Because when you shut up long enough, you'll realise, actually, this is good fun.

[00:49:28.11] - Gordon Drayson
Yeah, bringing out the child in everyone. That's what it is, isn't it?

[00:49:31.15] - Gordon Drayson
We'll be right back with our interview in just a few minutes. But first, a word from our sponsor, which today is me. So as well as being a full-time entertainer, I also run a company called Drayson Design. And one of the products that we produce is called Drayson Design Reviews. This is a system that is designed to make sure you get reviews and testimonials from all of your shows, and make sure that they are available in social media as well as on your website. It integrates with all the big social medias, including Facebook and Google, along with lots of other services as well. You have one link that you send your customers. They can leave their testimonials on your social media, and after they've left them, they will be pulled back into your website so you can display those anywhere you want to put them. Now, what's really clever is it's smart. So if people leave you a four or five-star review, then that's great. You ask them to leave a testimonial on social media and it gets pulled into your website. If, however, they leave a three-star or less review, well, you don't really want that on social media.

[00:50:51.20] - Gordon Drayson
So what it will do is it'll send them a form instead saying, "I'm so sorry we didn't meet up to your expectations. Please tell us why." And that comes straight to you and not to anybody else. So you can fix it, and it prevents a bad social media review. Once it's in the system, you can then show them on your website. You can tag each review with different tags so that they can show in different places. That way, if you do Punch and Judy, you can have all of your Punch and Judy reviews shown on your Punch and Judy page. And if you do children's parties, you can have all of those reviews on your Children's Parties page. So they've got the right reviews on the right pages. And even cleverer is it can have a 'wall of love.' And this will show all of your reviews, which work a little bit like Facebook. So when you get to the bottom of the page, it will then load more and it will keep scrolling until it runs out. That way you can show all your reviews on a very, very fast website. And all it takes is a few lines of code added to your website for this to work. Now, you can find out about this by going to draysondesign.com. The link is on the screen or if you're listening to the podcast, then look for the show notes on our website, facethepodcast.com. Right, enough of me. Let's get back to our interview.

[00:52:20.22] - Gordon Drayson
So, we spoke about different styles. You've just mentioned it there. So I feel, having spoken to all of you and discussed your shows and your approach to children's entertainment and family entertainment, I feel that Kerry and I are very much more a similar style, and Kelly and Paul are a very similar style. So the style is that me and Kerry are very much quieter, and we have big moments in our show, but it's more organised, it's more quieter, slower. Whereas Paul and Kelly, you have a feeling that just anything could and probably will happen during the show. Do you -

[00:53:06.23] - Jelly Kelly
I'm very organised. My show is not just left to happen.

[00:53:09.07] - Gordon Drayson
But that's not how it appears, right?

[00:53:10.24] - Paul Longhurst
Same here.

[00:53:11.05] - Gordon Drayson
It appears like you're just very, "Oh, my goodness, this is happening now, and this is happening now." It might be planned, but your style is that's, it's just happening, and you don't know what's going to come. So do you find that that makes it a lot more difficult at some points to keep control, or do you find that people just go with it and end up being a mirror image of you and giving you back the energy you're giving them?

[00:53:42.11] - Paul Longhurst
Yes. So the very first thing that happens in my current show is it goes wrong. So I can't do magic because my wand's being a git. So I present a problem and the kids present the answer to that. So you're right. It is chaos because together we're trying to make the best of a bad situation. But once we find out the kids can do the magic and they have all the answers with them, then they're really on-side. They really want to help. So anyone who's being disruptive or unruly or something like that, I can get them like, "Come on, we need to get this party back on. You've got the magic. What can we do with it? Let's make this fun." So you're right, it is perceived chaos, but it's the psychology behind it. And what we're doing in the journey I take them on is really well planned and thought through to get them to that end where they are all chanting the birthday boy's name and the birthday boy saves the day and all of that. So in terms of... I'm being very high energy, and in terms of solving the problems that I present to them, I expect the kids to step up to that energy. So, if anyone is being disruptive or unruly, we can guide their energy back towards helping the birthday boy. For me, that's a lot easier to do that because I can say, "We've got a problem, help us fix it." And I present to them a problem that I know that they can fix easily.

[00:55:14.09] - Gordon Drayson
Okay, that's very good. Anyone else?

[00:55:17.18] - Jelly Kelly
I think by being more chaotic? I'd say high energy more than chaotic for my show. And because I'm so high energy, the kids are like, "what the hell?" They don't get a chance to miss behave, or get bored or fidget because they're so like, "what is this adult doing?" It's a lot of energy, I think. I think it's more the energy that they're following with me and that they get involved with more than the chaos. And I keep their focus very easily because they don't get a moment to get bored because it's too energetic.

[00:55:58.21] - Gordon Drayson
Yeah, that makes sense. Kerry, what do you think?

[00:56:03.16] - Kerry Jay
I don't know. Obviously, in my natural me way, for example, in this interview now, I'm a lot quieter, I guess. But the feedback I tend to get off parents is "where do you get all your energy? Oh my gosh, you've got so much energy." So I think in performance, I am energetic. Probably in a dancer background way as well. I won't, for example, put your hands up. Most people will do that. I'll do that. Everything's large and finished in a using my body in a quite performance way. So whilst I might seem insular sometimes in conversation, I think when I'm in performance mode, I am larger than life. Which, I haven't seen anybody's shows here. I'd love to.

[00:57:05.19] - Jelly Kelly
I haven't seen your shows either.

[00:57:07.21] - Kerry Jay
Yeah. It's...

[00:57:10.03] - Paul Longhurst
Let's do a swap.

[00:57:12.03] - Kerry Jay
Let's all going to be each other's parties. That would be so cool.

[00:57:15.16] - Gordon Drayson
That's a really interesting point, actually, because we do what we do, it's very rare for us to see another entertainer's show. So we are building our own shows in the way that we think is best for us. And we don't have any of these outside influences. I have seen Paul show, and it is very different to my show, and Paul's seen my show.

[00:57:39.01] - Paul Longhurst
Eventually.

[00:57:39.17] - Gordon Drayson
Sorry?

[00:57:40.19] - Paul Longhurst
Eventually, it was different to your show.

[00:57:42.16] - Gordon Drayson
Yes, we spoke about that in our interview, yes. But yeah, it is a very different style. I've seen Kelly perform on the stage in the competition, but that's not, I would say, in a working environment. And Kerry, I've not seen you. So I think that would be really interesting. I don't know quite how we can do that, but it would be a really interesting conversation to see a snippet of people's shows and discuss it between us. That will be something that maybe we shall look at for a future FACE: The Podcast.

[00:58:18.13] - Jelly Kelly
Seeing it recorded won't be the same. We should actually go to a show, sit in and watch it, feel the energy in the room. That's when you experience it.

[00:58:26.07] - Gordon Drayson
I'm not sure how we can do that. That sounds like a lot of work.

[00:58:29.16] - Jelly Kelly
It does sound like a lot of work. I don't think it will ever happen.

[00:58:33.11] - Gordon Drayson
Maybe we should just-

[00:58:34.07] - Kerry Jay
I think the closest I got to seeing your show, Kelly, was when you got everybody up at Trix and you did "Duck, duck, duck, duck.

[00:58:41.02] - Jelly Kelly
Oh, when I did my...

[00:58:42.23] - Kerry Jay
Yeah. So you got the whole audience being kids and got everybody involved. I think I saw a lot more of your act there than I did actually when you did your act at Blackpool, which wasn't a natural situation.

[00:58:57.17] - Jelly Kelly
No.

[00:58:58.18] - Kerry Jay
I loved that. That was a brilliant routine.

[00:59:00.24] - Gordon Drayson
Maybe we should just have a convention where everyone comes along with their show and everyone just gets up and does something and we can just watch all the different styles, the different ways of performing.

[00:59:12.09] - Jelly Kelly
Not a bad idea.

[00:59:12.09] - Gordon Drayson
It could be interesting.

[00:59:14.19] - Jelly Kelly
You'll just find people nicking your act, though.

[00:59:17.05] - Gordon Drayson
Well, that is always the possibility.

[00:59:18.11] - Jelly Kelly
There'll be a lot of that going on.

[00:59:19.12] - Gordon Drayson
People sitting and watching with notebooks.

[00:59:25.16] - Jelly Kelly
Write down that gag, that's now mine.

[00:59:29.07] - Gordon Drayson
So let me open it up to the floor. Does anyone have a topic they wish to discuss with the four of us? Kelly, have you got something you'd like to say?

[00:59:39.03] - Jelly Kelly
I wrote a couple of ones down. I did my homework for you.

[00:59:41.04] - Gordon Drayson
Did you? Well done.

[00:59:41.24] - Jelly Kelly
And unlike Paul, who said, "I'll take one of your questions."

[00:59:44.17] - Gordon Drayson
Yeah, I did notice that.

[00:59:46.11] - Jelly Kelly
No you're not Paul. I spent hours racking my brains for the perfect question.

[00:59:49.12] - Gordon Drayson
Go on then. Floor's yours.

[00:59:51.15] - Jelly Kelly
I've got two. Ooh, actually I've got three. I'll have one. I'll give one to Kerry, one to Paul. The first one I thought of, if you could give one piece of advice to somebody starting off in this industry or struggling to keep going, what would it be?

[01:00:11.13] - Gordon Drayson
Oh, that's really, really good. I think the answer to that has changed over time. I think-

[01:00:19.12] - Jelly Kelly
Right now then, for now, as a now answer.

[01:00:22.22] - Kerry Jay
I'd say, if you're not enjoying it, don't. If it's not working for you, you're not having fun anymore. It's a really good time to stop.

[01:00:30.22] - Jelly Kelly
Funny enough, that's my answer is that, do what makes you happy. Other people respond to your energy and enjoy it, too. Is my own thought of that.

[01:00:38.19] - Gordon Drayson
For someone coming into it, I think one of the top close-up magicians, Faye Presto, has probably got the right answer, and that is just get out and do it. If you're going out and doing it at parties, you're getting experience, you're learning on the job, you're getting an idea of if you do enjoy it, if this is the sort of thing you want to do. And every time you perform, you're getting better and better. So, yeah, that's probably a good answer, I would say, for someone new.

[01:01:09.14] - Kerry Jay
Someone who's struggling to keep going in the industry, like somebody has been doing it and still finding they're not actually getting there yet. You know?

[01:01:17.16] - Kerry Jay
But if they're not enjoying it, then-

[01:01:19.19] - Jelly Kelly
That's it. I think it comes down to that.

[01:01:22.04] - Paul Longhurst
For me, it's about get it on its feet and enjoy the fail. Because you are going to fail. We've all failed, right? And just to know that everyone fails and then just to get up and carry on.

[01:01:37.23] - Jelly Kelly
Keep riding that bike.

[01:01:38.20] - Paul Longhurst
Enjoy that, right? Because it hurts, it hurts. But you've got to get up, you got to enjoy it. Otherwise, you're never going to stand up again. And this is where places like Trix and Kidology and places like that are so good because you can talk to people and go, "I had this party the other day and this kid said..." And other people will go, "Yes, happened to me." Like your story, Kelly, I can relate to that. I've been in that room.

[01:02:01.00] - Jelly Kelly
Have you? It's horrible. 24 years.

[01:02:02.24] - Paul Longhurst
I know exactly that woman you're talking about.

[01:02:04.06] - Gordon Drayson
Wait, were you booked as well? What's going on?.

[01:02:09.13] - Jelly Kelly
There was so much going on there.

[01:02:15.11] - Paul Longhurst
But yeah, enjoy the fail is the other thing.

[01:02:17.23] - Kerry Jay
But also say yes to new experiences. So yes, this time last year, I had never done close-up magic before, and somebody said, "Can you do brunch with Santa?" I was like, "Yes, of course I can." And I did a few gigs with it last year, and this year I'm doing every, you know, twice a week for two months.

[01:02:36.09] - Paul Longhurst
A little bit showy-offy.

[01:02:37.21] - Kerry Jay
No, but just because you say yes to the thing you can't quite do yet, and if I didn't do it, and it hadn't worked, then never mind. But I've really enjoyed it. It was a new skill. But if I hadn't have said yes to it before I could actually do it, I wouldn't have got it.

[01:02:58.10] - Jelly Kelly
That's a good point. That's a good answer.

[01:03:00.12] - Kerry Jay
It's the old Equity thing, isn't it? "Can you do this? Can you horse ride?" "Yes, of course I can." If you get the gig, you go off and learn how to do it.

[01:03:10.02] - Gordon Drayson
Horse riding lessons. So I think if you're struggling, then maybe take things back to basics and work out maybe a different way of doing what you do, because if you're struggling, it possibly means you're not doing it the best way you can. And it may be just because you've been doing things the way you've always done things. And as we discussed earlier, that may not be the right thing for today. So just pare things back. Yes, Paul?

[01:03:35.17] - Paul Longhurst
I've got another one. Buddy up. Buddy up.

[01:03:39.12] - Jelly Kelly
I was just about to say that.

[01:03:39.19] - Paul Longhurst
I think in all circumstances, find a buddy. The best thing that happened to me in magic was Gordon and I buddying up. Every Wednesday, we got together and we talked things through. We had little projects we worked on, and it was great. It was absolutely great for those low moments. It also means that if you say you're going to do something by this time next week, you've got someone going, "Did you do it?" "ooh I didn't do it." Making you feel bad for the commitments you didn't hit, and stretching you to make you do commitments you should hit. It's a really good system. Find someone who you're not in competition with and that you trust, and it's a great, great thing.

[01:04:20.16] - Gordon Drayson
Two heads are definitely better than one. And just like we are doing now, we're getting four different opinions on the same topics, and it's the sort of thing that you're going to go away from and think, "oh, so and so said that. And that's really interesting." Kerry's already got a new line for keeping the parents under control, which is great. And I'm sure there are people listening. I'm sure there are people listening now who are going, "actually, yeah, I hadn't really thought of it that way. Maybe I should change what I do or think of it in a different way." And I think that's why this is good.

[01:04:56.23] - Kerry Jay
Keeping it fresh as well, which is something you said in your podcast that I've just listened to, Paul. But yeah, keeping it fresh does keep your energy up. So before I did the magic, my children's entertainment was a lot of princessing. And my mum said, nobody loves a fairy when she's 40.

[01:05:16.15] - Gordon Drayson
Wow! A little bit harsh.

[01:05:18.06] - Kerry Jay
Things change. Keeping it fresh. The magic has been the keeping it fresh for me and introducing new things. The keeping it fresh keeps me excited, keeps me interested, keeps my energy up, keeps people booking me again because it might not be exactly the same as last time. And yeah, I think keeping it fresh is a really good way of energising yourself.

[01:05:44.23] - Gordon Drayson
So here's a question for everyone. If you want to keep things fresh, it means either throwing the show that you've got currently that's been working really well to the side and starting completely over, or the alternative is to swap out things in your show for something new. So the question is, and this is a question that I've spoken with many entertainers on, and they all have completely different opinions. My opinion is that you take the best thing out of your show and you replace it, because the only way that you can get a show... Are you okay, Kelly?

[01:06:31.23] - Jelly Kelly
I was having an heart attack then. What?

[01:06:33.13] - Gordon Drayson
The reasoning behind it is that by taking out the best thing, you're having to then bring everything else up to that level.

[01:06:43.13] - Gordon Drayson
So if you put something new in, you're having to push and push until you get it to the level that you had before you took something out. And you've now got a whole back catalogue of a material. Whereas if you take the worst thing out of your show, is your show actually changing that much? Is the level getting higher? Are you bringing something in that might also be the worst thing in your show that will get taken out? So that's my thinking. I'd be very interested.

[01:07:12.12] - Kerry Jay
I think that's a very confident way. I don't think I've got that level of confidence.

[01:07:19.05] - Gordon Drayson
Okay.

[01:07:19.22] - Kerry Jay
I think it's a brilliant idea and I can see your reasoning behind it. My God, I'm not going to do that.

[01:07:26.19] - Gordon Drayson
Kelly, what's your thoughts?

[01:07:28.12] - Jelly Kelly
I don't... That's a tough one for me because, again, with kids, because you see five-year-olds, there's always going to be new five-year-olds each year. It's not like, let's say, I got different magic shows for different ages and different tricks that I'll bring in as they get older. So the show would change. To bring in something new and fresh, I'd never get rid of my favourite thing in the show because I know that is a winner. That means no matter what, if they only remember that, it's going to be good. And when I'm bringing something new, I'll slip it in there around that to test it. And then it might end up taking over that, but only once it's tested. I don't take out the best thing and then not have that flow, that energy, that patter, that you know what you're saying. You can go off lib, it doesn't matter because you've got the bones there already, memorised down, muscle memory of doing it and everything. I wouldn't get rid of my favourite thing out of the show and replace it with, "I'm just going to try this." I would try that around the favourite thing so that I've still got that impact. That I've still got that, "wow, that was amazing," at least in the show. You know what I mean?

[01:08:34.22] - Gordon Drayson
Okay. Paul?

[01:08:36.17] - Paul Longhurst
I'm changing my entire show.

[01:08:38.14] - Gordon Drayson
So you're going to continue with the show you've got until you're happy with the next show? Or you're just going to say, "Right, that's it. I'm going to do a brand new show as of tomorrow. I've not done it before. I've planned it, but I don't-"

[01:08:53.02] - Paul Longhurst
I've already booked the party I know is going to be the first presentation of the new show, and it's for my niece, so I can kind of get away with it a little bit. But-

[01:09:03.09] - Kerry Jay
Will it have the bunny rabbit?

[01:09:05.22] - Paul Longhurst
Yeah.

[01:09:06.20] - Kerry Jay
See, that's the best thing in your show that will... No, it's not necessarily the best thing in your show. It is a kind of USP that you say you've got the live bunny rabbit. And is that argument... And, Gordon, you're the same. Would you get rid of the bunny rabbit? Because isn't that the thing that you advertise as "we have got this!"

[01:09:27.05] - Gordon Drayson
I do. And I do get booked because I have a bunny rabbit. And the bunny rabbit for many, many years was the best thing in my show. It's the thing that the children walked away remembering. However, when I brought in the talking drawing board, I found it completely split, 50/50, what people enjoyed most. I didn't think I was ever going to find anything that was going to top making a bunny rabbit or the birthday child making a bunny rabbit appear. But this talking drawing board, I call it Charlie, the talking drawing board gets 50% of the kids when I ask them, and I do? Every time they come and get their party bags, I say, "So what was your favourite bit of the party?" And 50% of them say, "Charlie. We really liked Charlie." And if I don't bring Charlie, they get really upset. And so I have to ask that question when I'm booking. And I never thought I would beat the bunny rabbit. Just quickly on asking the kids, because I do party bags, I hand them out. I ask kids, what's the best bit of the party? I also ask the kids, what bit did you not enjoy?

[01:10:33.19] - Gordon Drayson
Because that's not a question that's asked very often. And I want to know what bits kids are finding tedious or boring or not interesting, because then I know what to work on. And I don't think many people ask that question. I think it's quite important. So, yeah, the answer to your question, yes, I do have a bunny rabbit, and you can make a bunny rabbit appear in different ways. And I've got different performances for that. And therefore, it does change in my show. If I go back and see the same kids or the same birthday child, I can do the bunny in a different way. And in fact, I've got two bunnies, so it can be a completely different bunny. And quite often the kids will say, "that's a different bunny to last time." I go, "well, yeah, of course, we just magicked it. They're always different." They go, "oh, yeah, that makes sense."

[01:11:20.24] - Kerry Jay
So when's the first show, Paul, of the new show?

[01:11:26.22] - Paul Longhurst
It's going to be March.

[01:11:29.10] - Kerry Jay
Okay.

[01:11:30.02] - Gordon Drayson
So you got a little bit of time.

[01:11:30.14] - Kerry Jay
And how much is written?

[01:11:33.01] - Paul Longhurst
No, I've got a... The current show is a hero show that we're all in massive trouble and the birthday boy saves the entire party, makes the bunny rabbit, brings my best friend back. We engineer a situation where the whole hall is chanting the birthday boy's name, the mum's at the back going, "This is amazing. I love this so much." It's a real hero's journey, really, in terms of storywriting. I can swap tricks, effects, I should say, in and out, as long as they fit the story, the types. Yeah, the narrative. The next one I'm going to do is, I think it's going to be water-based. I've got lots of water tricks and effects, so I need to find out where it's going to go. I need to find out the end yet, but I've got a vague idea of what what I want to happen. And again, I need to get the birthday boy doing as much magic as, or birthday girl, birthday child doing as much magic as possible, but I don't want it to be that hero's journey again. So that's what I need to find, and I've got a few months to do it.

[01:12:45.12] - Gordon Drayson
Can I just say, I love the fact you've got it in March, which is just after February, should you need any extra effects just to fill a gap? It's as if you thought this through and thought, "Where can I be in February, where I can get these things."

[01:13:04.05] - Jelly Kelly
Buy magic.

[01:13:04.05] - Paul Longhurst
My show definitely starts with a plot, concept, journey. It starts theatrically. It absolutely starts theatrically, and I'm going to put the magic into the theatre rather than, "I've got a trick, how am I going to make that work?" That's how my process needs to work, just the way my head works.

[01:13:27.04] - Gordon Drayson
It's very good. I've come up with a similar theme. I'd like to do a superhero theme, and everything is all about making the child a superhero. I love that idea, and I haven't actually started work on it yet, but I have been collecting superhero effects just to see what's out there and what's available. But I love that sort of idea. I think that would work really well for kids. But having a narrative and a story as part of the show, I think, will elevate the show into a more theatrical experience rather than just a collection of tricks.

[01:14:03.14] - Paul Longhurst
That's just the way my head works. But yeah, I don't think I could do a show with here's a trick and here's another trick, and here's another trick, and thanks very much. It's not in me to do. I've seen brilliant people do it. I've seen it done brilliantly. But for me, I wouldn't get any satisfaction out of that.

[01:14:23.15] - Jelly Kelly
I think there's merit in performing the same trick for many, many years and perfecting it. So in my shows, I've still got something which I bought probably when I started. It's changed a bit over the years and it's got better and I've added to it. But it's still the same trick, basically, as what I bought 24 years ago at my first magic shop I ever walked into. And I use it nearly in every show. And I will continue to do it because I love it. It gets a great reaction.

[01:14:52.10] - Paul Longhurst
It's the thumb.

[01:14:53.09] - Jelly Kelly
It's the thumb, yeah. It's basically the thumb.

[01:14:55.24] - Gordon Drayson
Wait, you bought that? Wow.

[01:15:00.10] - Jelly Kelly
And it's polished then. My act feels polished because it's not all new things that I'm trying to work out. They're polished. They're timed. I know exactly where it's going to go, and I can go off a little bit if I need to and come back to it. I've got the bones there completely. I quite enjoy doing the same show again and again and again, because I get different reaction from the audience sometimes with bits anyway. And I'm not bored of the show still because it flows so nicely from one a trick to the next. There's no storyline behind it, but they somehow are linked together in the way that I move on to the next one. They're linked, but it's not actually for a reason. There's no story reason for them to be linked. It's just I link them in to the next bit. But I find that after years and years of doing it and polishing it, even now, I'll suddenly go, and I have a new idea for that. Or a kid will say something like, "Oh, I'm bringing that in." And then "I'll bring that into it from now on," and it just adds to it. I quite enjoy doing the same old shit.

[01:16:02.01] - Gordon Drayson
It's funny you say that because there are two schools of thought as far as material goes, isn't there? There's the "children watch Disney films all the time, and they watch the same one again and again because they take comfort in knowing what's coming, and they're looking forward to their favourite bit." And then there's the other side of it, which is "Disney bring out brand new films, and the kids are eager to go and watch their favourite characters doing a different film, Toy Story 1-4, etc. And they enjoy seeing brand new ones as well." I remember talking to Richard Pinner on FACE: The Podcast, and he changes his show all the time, and he doesn't subscribe to the 'kids want to see the same thing again and again.' But I do find every now and then, if I don't perform something that I'm known for, then kids will be very disappointed. They'll actually come up and they say, "Oh, we were really looking forward to seeing so and so, and it didn't happen."

[01:17:05.22] - Jelly Kelly
But you also don't want them to see the same thing every time because they know what's coming next, and they don't sit there watching a movie...

[01:17:10.12] - Kerry Jay
And they'll tell you.

[01:17:11.23] - Jelly Kelly
...Saying to Woody or whatever, "Oh, I know what you're going to do next. I know. I saw that bit last time." They don't shout that at the TV, but they will say it to you in the moment of the show. So even if the birthday child's going "I want exactly the same party that I've just seen," you're like, "it's only last month you saw me, same crowd. I'm switching this up." And I'll do a couple of bits that they're expecting the same. I'll go, "okay, I'll do that and that for you. But otherwise, I'm going to do something a little bit different." Just so that you don't have those few kids in the audience who'll be like, "oh, and then you're going to get the wands. They're all different colours, aren't they?" You're like, "oh, shut up, you little."

[01:17:47.06] - Kerry Jay
I think it's easier to get away with... So my first half of my party is a lot of party dances with props. So I've got some songs that I use with action songs. And there's ones, they're not so known ones, but I'll always do that because I find that's easy to be a signature thing. And I want them to know it because they'll know the actions and they'll be confident doing those actions. Whereas if it's something with a surprise that's coming next, you don't want them shouting out that surprise before it's happened.

[01:18:24.14] - Gordon Drayson
So wait, a dancer wants to be known for dancing. That's what we're saying here, is it? Okay.

[01:18:30.01] - Kerry Jay
I'm still new to magic, though. I mean, it's still fairly new to me. I've not even been doing it two years yet, the magic side. So it's still a very much something I'm not as experienced in that as you guys. It's something I'm still on the learning stage of.

[01:18:46.18] - Gordon Drayson
But that's why your opinions are so important because you are new coming into this, whereas the rest of us have been doing it for a lot longer. And again, you may come in with different ideas and changes based on the landscape as it is today.

[01:19:03.14] - Paul Longhurst
A new set of eyes. Kelly, can I just add to something that you just said? I've just thought in my show, people see my show a lot. I've seen kids who've seen it four or five times, and never once do they shout out, "I know what happens at the end." And I'm thinking it's because of the plot. "It's going to change colour" or shouting out the thing. It does happen when I do walk about in weddings and things like that, but you've just made me think it doesn't happen in my kid's show.

[01:19:29.24] - Jelly Kelly
It'll be the eight-year-old who's at a four-year-old, five-year-old party, and they're like, "Oh, yeah, you did this when I saw you at so-and-so's party." They might not say what happens, but "you did this. I saw this at so-and-so's." You'll get some. I don't get it a lot, Paul. I don't get it a lot, but I do get it.

[01:19:48.02] - Paul Longhurst
I do get it a lot when I'm not doing a plot-based thing. I think what I was going to say was, I think the fact that mind's a story takes away their ability. I'm concentrating on the plot, not the magic. The magic is just happening while I'm telling the story. I think that was just what you were saying. I thought, "Oh, that's happened to me," but it hasn't happened since I started doing this.

[01:20:07.22] - Jelly Kelly
Because they'll watch the story again and again because it's a story.

[01:20:10.19] - Paul Longhurst
I think that's the difference.

[01:20:12.02] - Jelly Kelly
Yeah you're probably right, actually, Paul. It's probably why. Interesting.

[01:20:15.11] - Paul Longhurst
Who knows? Kids, they're idiots.

[01:20:18.04] - Jelly Kelly
They're lovely, though. We love them.

[01:20:21.01] - Gordon Drayson
I think we've got time, as long as everyone is available, for one more topic is what I was going to say, Kelly. Now, just before we go back to Kelly and her 300 questions, do either of the other two have a topic or something you want to discuss?

[01:20:41.16] - Kerry Jay
No.

[01:20:41.21] - Paul Longhurst
I thought Kelly's last one was so good.

[01:20:45.07] - Gordon Drayson
Right. So you're suggesting we go back to Kelly and have a second topic from her. Okay, Kelly, off you go.

[01:20:52.11] - Jelly Kelly
You can choose, right? Because I've got either, if you could go back in time, what would you tell yourself when you were starting out? Or, because we've done a starting out one. It's a bit starting out-ish. What's your favourite age group to entertain and why? Or what's your favourite convention and why? I've got all these questions. It was so good. Paul is like, "oh, which one do I want to choose?" It's your question, Paul.

[01:21:15.15] - Paul Longhurst
What would I say to myself as a younger person? Eat less.

[01:21:18.14] - Jelly Kelly
Ah. Yeah.

[01:21:20.22] - Gordon Drayson
But you wouldn't be half the man you are today, Paul.

[01:21:24.23] - Paul Longhurst
I might be exactly half the man.

[01:21:28.19] - Kerry Jay
Yeah, but I don't know. I bet you've enjoyed every single fabulous meal out.

[01:21:37.06] - Paul Longhurst
It's true.

[01:21:39.01] - Kerry Jay
Can't take those experiences away.

[01:21:42.10] - Paul Longhurst
What would say to myself as a younger man, it would be, you should have started earlier. I should've started earlier. I didn't have the confidence. I didn't know this really existed as a career path. Of course, I did, but I didn't think of it. If I have regrets in life, and I'm not one for regrets, but if I did, it would be that I didn't just pack my job in and do what I know I'm good at, which is entertaining people. And I didn't do that at the start. So if anyone's listening to this and they're thinking, "I'm stuck in a dead-end job, how do I start?" There's thousands of resources. Everyone on here would be willing to help point you in the right place. There's conventions. We're a really supportive group.

[01:22:24.23] - Gordon Drayson
And in fact, if you haven't already, go and listen to Paul's interview because he talks about this quite a lot. So I think that will definitely help.

[01:22:34.20] - Paul Longhurst
Good point. I've forgotten what I said. But yeah, so that would be for me. Great question, Kelly.

[01:22:40.02] - Gordon Drayson
Kerry, you're quite new into it, as you said, but is there anything that you would have done differently from the beginning, knowing what you know now?

[01:22:48.04] - Kerry Jay
It's hard. It's been such an organic process. I don't know what the beginning is. Everything's flowed from thing to thing with more of a crossover. So I don't really know where a beginning would be. I think I'm quite happy in that going back, I said yes to lots of things I couldn't do. And that's probably my best bit of advice that I have done in lots of ways. There's a couple of things I wish I had said yes to years ago, but I think on the whole, it's just been a flowy progression rather than a life-changing moment, like Paul, of giving up his job and starting something that he loves and was thinking about for years before he did it. I think I've probably more thrown myself into the deep end and done it without... I mean, kids' entertainment only happened because I was a mum and I couldn't work in shows and stuff like that anymore. It was a, "Oh, help. What shall I do? My partner worked shift work. I can't set up a dance school. Oh, hang on, this will work." Everything I've fallen into and developed. So there isn't a natural start for me.

[01:24:08.02] - Gordon Drayson
So the answer to your question for me is similar to Kerry, because when I started, which was over 30 years ago now, we didn't have the resources that are available now. There wasn't the internet, there wasn't YouTube, there wasn't even-

[01:24:24.16] - Jelly Kelly
Google.

[01:24:25.14] - Gordon Drayson
Google, no, Google didn't exist. There wasn't even... Yellow Pages was the only advertising you could do. That was it. But there wasn't even children's entertainer conventions. We were looked upon as the lowest of the low, and the only conventions that were really going on at that time were the Blackpool Convention, which at the time was a one-day convention, and we weren't even figured in there. There weren't any children's entertainers dealers. It was all pretty much close up. And the IBM Convention, which was all over the place, and it was a bit longer. And they started to cater for children's entertainers because they realised there were quite a few out there. So there weren't as many places for me to go to talk to others, to learn. So I pretty much had to learn myself, teach myself. And as Kerry said, it grew organically. So I'm not entirely sure what I would have been able to tell myself before to go in a different route or to find a particular resource because they just weren't available to me at the time.

[01:25:37.05] - Gordon Drayson
Kelly, what would you tell yourself?

[01:25:40.14] - Jelly Kelly
Magic is not as scary as you think to learn.

[01:25:43.11] - Gordon Drayson
You found it really scary to start, did you?

[01:25:47.01] - Jelly Kelly
No. I didn't really find anything that scary. I couldn't find magic. That was the problem. I couldn't find a magic shop because there was no Google, no internet. So I found it... I was doing games and face painting for quite a while before I managed to find somewhere I could buy some magic.

[01:26:02.11] - Gordon Drayson
We do say that children's entertainment and family entertainment, the door is ajar, but you actually have to push it open. It is possible to find this door and push it open. I'm going to be talking to a gentleman called Damian Jay for FACE: The Podcast coming up, and he's a bubbleologist. And it's not... As bubbleologists go, it's not a matter of pushing the door open, it's a matter of finding the door. You don't even know where the door is. But at least with children's entertainment, you can talk to other children's entertainers and you can find your way, find your path, if you like.

[01:26:43.12] - Jelly Kelly
I'd definitely say to my younger self, go to conventions earlier. I started going late. Meet people, meet... You make friends with peers like you guys and other people at Trix in the Stix who've become my family in many ways. Someone who I can talk to, turn to for advice. I'm trying to think of a bit of music. I'll put it out there. Someone's going to come up with it. We've got this wonderful pot of brilliantly talented people that we can all tap into and support each other with. And if I were to go back to my younger self, I would have said, get more involved with other entertainers earlier instead of trying to do it all yourself.

[01:27:20.09] - Gordon Drayson
I think we should actually point out and give credit to Practical Magic originally, but now Gary Dunn and John Kimmons and his team for doing Trix in the Stix, which is just called Trix now, I think, because it's no longer in the sticks, because sadly, Kidology is no more. So there won't be, as far as I know, any more Kidologies unless someone else takes over that mantle. But Trix in the Stix now is the main children's entertainer convention in the UK, and it is unlike any convention anywhere. And anyone who is a children or family entertainer, no matter where you are, we have people who come over from America, from Poland, from all over the place, Austria, Germany.

[01:28:03.11] - Jelly Kelly
We've got the Swiss people who come in.

[01:28:05.16] - Gordon Drayson
We got the Swiss people who come. People come from all over the place to come to Trix in the Stix. And if you haven't been, you should, because exactly as Kelly said, you get to talk to other professionals, other people in the business, and it really does make a difference.

[01:28:19.03] - Jelly Kelly
And you can be really inspired. I always find when I go to Trix in the Stix, my favourite convention by far, better than Blackpool. Blackpool I come back with liver damage, and tricks that I go, "why did I buy that?" And then with Trix in the Stix, I come back inspired, absolutely inspired with some way to bring something else into my show, or thinking on a slightly different level. And it really helps you open up your mind to the other possibilities. So for me-

[01:28:43.22] - Paul Longhurst
And it has a magic slant, but it's not a magic convention.

[01:28:46.17] - Jelly Kelly
Exactly.

[01:28:46.18] - Paul Longhurst
It's for children and family entertainers.

[01:28:49.03] - Jelly Kelly
It's not all magic.

[01:28:49.18] - Kerry Jay
I didn't even realise it. I think I said when you interviewed me before, Gordon, that was my in to magic. I was invited by Louise Clarke to Trix in the Stix. She said it was a children's entertainer convention. I hadn't even considered doing magic. I didn't know any of the in gags and what a breakaway wand was and all of these things. I didn't have a clue. It was only when I got there meeting lovely people like you guys and just chatting. I got as much out of chatting in the bar as I did in the lectures and in all the stores that people are so happy to show you things, demonstrate things. And yeah, that was my in. Trix was my in to magic.

[01:29:35.10] - Jelly Kelly
I recommend anyone who hasn't gone to Trix in the Stix, get a ticket for this one. You're missing out. Missing out on a really big opportunity for you to grow your business, grow your self-confidence, and be amongst people who get what you do.

[01:29:48.24] - Gordon Drayson
And it's not too big like Blackpool is. It's quite small. So there are a limited number of tickets, so make sure you buy them before they're sold out. But yeah, it is good.

[01:29:58.01] - Kerry Jay
The other thing I like, as opposed to Blackpool, is that everybody's staying predominantly in the same place. So we don't have to worry that, "oh God, I better get back and walk back to my..."

[01:30:08.11] - Jelly Kelly
On your own or whatever.

[01:30:10.01] - Kerry Jay
We're all on site for the whole thing.

[01:30:11.19] - Jelly Kelly
Everyone gets blind drunk at the bar till four in the morning. We've got to get up later. Or is it just me?

[01:30:17.07] - Gordon Drayson
I do find, actually, I do find with conventions that the sitting and the chatting bit for me now, because I've been to so many for so long, that is the bit that is the best bit for me.

[01:30:30.10] - Gordon Drayson
Because you see people that you don't see very often, sometimes only at conventions, and you catch up with them and you talk to them about the stories that they've had over the last year and you learn from them. And it's the best bit of the convention for me.

[01:30:46.08] - Jelly Kelly
Doing balloons at the bar, the early hours of the morning, one in the morning, we all start doing balloon twisting, then to challenge each other to make something or whatever.

[01:30:53.10] - Kerry Jay
Or running around with chicken feet.

[01:30:55.02] - Jelly Kelly
Oh yeah! I'm so happy doing that. I'm like, "oh, just leave me with the bag of latex, bottle of wine."

[01:30:59.15] - Gordon Drayson
Anyone listening to this podcast,

[01:31:05.13] - Kerry Jay
If they tuned in at that point.

[01:31:06.00] - Gordon Drayson
You may have a particular view of what Jelly Kelly is about now. It's the wine and latex. There we go. So anyone want to say, anyone want to say anything just to round us off on our roundtable?

[01:31:25.16] - Kerry Jay
Just been lovely chatting with you all, really.

[01:31:29.03] - Paul Longhurst
I've come away, actually, I've learned a lot. This has been brilliant. Thank you, guys. It's great.

[01:31:36.13] - Jelly Kelly
I'd like to say thank you, Gordon, for doing the podcast. I love listening to other entertainers and their experiences and just how different everyone is in their own unique style and their approach to everything. I love listening to that. It doesn't make me... I don't copy them. It doesn't change what I do. It might influence or give me ideas, but it's just wonderful to feel how different we all are. There's the niche for all of us out there. There really is. And that's lovely. I have one more question.

[01:32:04.03] - Gordon Drayson
Oh, right. Me about rounding off and we go... Is everyone okay for time?

[01:32:09.21] - Jelly Kelly
But Kerry didn't ask a question, so Kerry's question is...

[01:32:12.06] - Gordon Drayson
Kerry, could you just funnel your question through Kelly for me?

[01:32:16.11] - Kerry Jay
Yeah, I'll just-

[01:32:18.03] - Jelly Kelly
Kerry, could you just ask everyone what's your favourite age group to entertain and why?

[01:32:21.24] - Kerry Jay
Ahhh.

[01:32:22.23] - Jelly Kelly
I think that's a nice question.

[01:32:24.08] - Gordon Drayson
Who wants to go first?

[01:32:25.17] - Jelly Kelly
Well, Kerry asked the question.

[01:32:27.14] - Gordon Drayson
So, Kelly, what's your answer then?

[01:32:31.20] - Jelly Kelly
Oh, yeah.

[01:32:35.19] - Gordon Drayson
If only you had prior knowledge of this question.

[01:32:38.04] - Jelly Kelly
It depends on the audience for me. I actually really like the older kids. Give me a room full of 10 to 12-year-olds. Hilarious fun. Brilliant fun. Even 9 to twelve. Once they're teenagers I kind of poke with a stick from a distance. But I like the older kids. I can do my cleverer magic. I can show off a bit more of my magical skills, and they get it. Different humour, way different humour. You've got to be on your toes with this lot. They keep you feeling like fresh. You're up there. They're giving as good as they're getting. And I quite enjoy the bounce of that. So my favourite kids age would be 9-12, but my favourite audience is a family with small kids and adults. So that's my favourite audience to play with, to play on. But my favourite kids age are older kids. A bit of a mixed answer.

[01:33:30.17] - Gordon Drayson
Okay, very good. I think for me, it's probably the 5-7 years. Sometimes the magic show is the first live show they've ever seen. Not always, but quite often it is. And I feel like I'm there, I'm setting the bar. It makes me want to be as good as I can be because it may be the first time they've ever seen a live performance. And just seeing their faces when they light up and they just, they're fully engaged is just lovely. I do enjoy the older ones because, as you say, completely different sort of humour, and it's a completely different show. But for me, I think probably 5-7 year olds is my favourite. Paul?

[01:34:13.19] - Paul Longhurst
I think 6-7. For me, I get real involvement in plot of the show or the 'look, don't see' bits. I get real involvement. Emotionally. I had a girl once stop the show. She just stood up and she went, "Magic Paul, don't let them tell you what to do. You do what you want to do. Own your own choices, Magic Paul." She meant, with every fibre of her being, she meant that. I only get that around that six, seven-year-old age group. I love that. I also really enjoy one-on-one. I enjoy performing because we're talking about family entertainment, for the elderly grandparents. I always love doing a little bit of close-up because they have respect and their approach to watching or being entertained with something like magic is wonderful. I get a lot out of that. But I love all. I love all. They're just the ones that spring to mind.

[01:35:24.03] - Kerry Jay
She's doing it again.

[01:35:27.03] - Gordon Drayson
Wow. Do you know what? All this money you spent on your equipment, Kelly, I'm starting to wonder if it's not just the fact that you bought loads of stuff and then broke it all.

[01:35:36.21] - Jelly Kelly
I can't even see. I have to have a virtual background. I've got my makeup ring light cos it's very dark in this corner of my house. So I thought I'd-

[01:35:44.02] - Kerry Jay
Prop it up.

[01:35:45.17] - Gordon Drayson
You've got a halo now.

[01:35:47.16] - Jelly Kelly
It just goes there so that it lights up on my face so I'm not sitting in a dark little shadow.

[01:35:53.13] - Gordon Drayson
I apologise to those who are listening to this and have no idea what's going on, but the equipment in Kelly's house is just going haywire. It's like the show. It's all planned, but it's chaos.

[01:36:05.22] - Jelly Kelly
Yes.

[01:36:07.17] - Gordon Drayson
Kerry, you haven't answered the question. Do you have an answer to this?

[01:36:11.04] - Kerry Jay
I mean, probably similar to you, 5-7. The thing is not so much age group. I've had different experiences with different age groups, really. I find the factor that most affects the party, not most effects, but the hall is a massive factor. I hate echoey halls where you have to keep turning everything up to defeat the... Well, I guess parents chatting, which I guess Paul, you don't get as much. I just hate an echoey hall, basically. I've got a few halls that I really don't like, and I will recommend somewhere else if the parent tells me they're thinking of booking it. If they ask me for recommendations, I've got my favourite halls, and I find that is a factor. The flow of the party is affected by the environment as much as the age range. I feel I'm confident with my material and I can present it in a good way that will appeal to a very wide range of ages if I'm able to get on with it and do it. But if I'm stuck in a funny corner or if the hall is like a massive sports hall that echoes or the parents have put chairs right to the side, so they're literally there and there when I'm trying to do the show there. That's a factor that affects things a lot more than the age of the children. Which you can control and I think you mentioned a little while ago, Gordon, because we both do our show after the food break to ask the parents to bring up a chair. After our conversation a few weeks ago, I have been doing that, and it does make a difference. And also if the chairs are there, I tend to get to a party about... I say I get there 30 minutes before, I often get there 40 minutes before, and hopefully they're still putting the chairs out and I can dictate where things go and bring things in a little bit. But yeah, environment is a big factor.

[01:38:25.12] - Jelly Kelly
But you should listen to a really good podcast, Gordon recently interviewed cos there's some tips on there.

[01:38:31.14] - Gordon Drayson
Yes, go back and listen to Kelly's interview. She'll tell you all about it.

[01:38:37.15] - Kerry Jay
It's not out yet, is it? But I'm looking forward to listening to it.

[01:38:40.16] - Gordon Drayson
Yes, it is out. By the time this one's out, that will be out.

[01:38:43.22] - Gordon Drayson
But it's not yet.

[01:38:45.01] - Kerry Jay
I need to...

[01:38:45.24] - Gordon Drayson
Yes, we're in the future.

[01:38:47.18] - Kerry Jay
I'm looking forward to hearing it, and I will.

[01:38:53.06] - Gordon Drayson
Right. Well, I think that is everything, unless anyone has any final words.

[01:38:58.13] - Paul Longhurst
I've got to go.

[01:38:59.03] - Jelly Kelly
We love you, Gordon.

[01:39:00.04] - Paul Longhurst
Yeah, we love you, Gordon.

[01:39:01.02] - Gordon Drayson
Can I thank all of you for spending time with us, giving us your wisdom, your experience, your knowledge.

[01:39:11.07] - Gordon Drayson
And I'd like to thank you. First of all, there's Kerry Jay. Thank you so much for coming, Kerry. There's Jelly Kelly. Thank you for coming, Kelly. And Paul Longhurst. Thank you for coming, Paul. It's been a fantastic discussion. I think every one of us have got something out of it. And hopefully those who are listening or watching this at home will also have got something out of this. If you want to contact these people, go watch their interviews, their individual interviews, and you'll find out a lot more about them if you haven't already, and there'll be contact details in the show notes. We'll be back with you with another FACE: The Podcast. It's a really good one coming up as well. All of them have been amazing so far. We haven't had a bad one, but the next one is going to be out very soon. So don't miss that. Until then, I will say goodbye to these guys.

[01:40:05.06] - Jelly Kelly
Thanks Gordon.

[01:40:06.07] - Paul Longhurst
Bye.

[01:40:07.09] - Gordon Drayson
Bye. So there we have it. The second roundtable is now complete. My thanks go to Kerry, Kelly, and Paul. Three very, very interesting entertainers. Very different views. There's some synergy between different members of that group in different ways, and I loved how that came across. It was very interesting that Kelly chose to talk about one of her big failures. I feel that quite a lot of the time, we don't like to talk about our failures, things that go wrong. And only by talking about them with other entertainers will we know that it happens to others and that we can just learn and grow from it between us. I think the idea of the what trick to take out of your show to put a new one in was also very interesting. I'd be interested to know what you, the listener, feel about that as well. That's a really important question for me, and I'd love to hear your comments. If you would like to join in the conversation, you can join our Facebook group, Family and Children's Entertainers, FACE: The Podcast. You can find a link to that in the show notes. You can also subscribe and hit that little bell icon on our YouTube channel, which is also a link to in the show notes.

[01:41:40.07] - Gordon Drayson
And of course, the website will have all of the episodes on with all the transcriptions. All of the episodes are being transcribed, so you can read through it or do a search and you'll find bits that would be of interest to you and it gives you the time code, so you can go straight to it to make this resource as useful as possible to you. And that can be found at facethepodcast.com. As I previously said, we've got another episode coming very soon that's already been recorded, so look out for that in the future. Once again, my thanks to Kerry, Kelly, and Paul for their fascinating insights. And thank you, the listener and watcher, for joining me. My name is Gordon Drayson, and I look forward to seeing you at the next FACE: The Podcast episode coming very soon. Until then, goodbye.