Round Table #1

[00:00:00.940] - Gordon
Hello, and welcome to FACE: The Podcast for family and children's entertainers, where we talk about what we do and how we do it. And this is our first roundtable. And we have two fantastic guests today. We have Chris Frost, better known as Frosty the magician, and we have Richard Pinner, better known as Richard Pinner, I guess. You don't have another name, do you? Well, you do have another name, but you don't have another performance name, right?

[00:00:36.510] - Richard
Richard Pinner is the other name, right?

[00:00:38.520] - Gordon
Yeah, that is true.

[00:00:39.450] - Richard
But I'm son of Pinner, so it's just my name. I didn't get to choose it.

[00:00:43.760] - Gordon
So let's start there then. So the name of your character. So it's something that a lot of people think a lot about, and they create this brand around that particular name. Richard, you just took on the name that you were given, basically. But Chris, you've gone the other route. You've actually decided to have this character and call him Frosty. So do you want to tell us the reasons for that or the pros and the cons?

[00:01:17.020] - Chris
Well, I'm Chris Frost. So basically, what happened to me was when I was at school, there was about three or four Chris's in my class and we all just got given our surname, so I became Frosty at quite young age. By year six, I was Frosty. It stuck. But character wise, I guess it's useful for a character. It's also a pain as well because it sounds a bit clowny and like childy, like kiddy. It's Frosty. It's frustrating because when I do adult stuff, it's more difficult to put out there. And I did go through a bit of going through Christopher Frost: Close-Up.

[00:02:09.020] - Richard
That's nice. Christopher Frost sounds good.

[00:02:12.950] - Gordon
I like it as well.

[00:02:14.190] - Richard
Balanced.

[00:02:14.190] - Chris
But what I found as well was it really diluted me in half. And now I embrace it a lot more, the Frosty thing, because I go, "do you know what? I am quite eccentric, I am a bit odd." The way that I dress in character is the way that I would dress if I was going to theatre or if I was going to... People wear dinner jackets and that kind stuff like that as a magician. As a close-up magician, but if you were... It's that thing of "how do I dress smart?" Well, I would dress smart as "can I find a gold dinner jacket anywhere? And if I can, is it nice?" So I would much prefer to go out like that anyway.

[00:02:58.670] - Gordon
So quite understated then.

[00:02:59.840] - Chris
For my school prom, when everybody was buying black dinner jackets and the dress trousers, I went to... There was a little factory shop in Cheshire, not The Factory Shop, a factory shop of a factory, that made suits for Moss Bros and stuff like that. And I went in there and bought a golden suit, a metallic gold suit. So the trousers and the suit. It wasn't a dinner jacket, it was a suit, but it was metallic gold. But not sequin-y, like not tat. It was nice. Unfortunately now, I'm the wrong shape to wear it. But as I was when I was, I mean I'm much, that's actually a good thing. I've lost a lot of weight since I was 18 years old. I was massive at 18.

[00:03:47.590] - Gordon
So it could be taken in then. It's a lot harder to go the other way, isn't it?

[00:03:51.200] - Chris
Yeah. I don't think I've still got it, to be honest. But I've started now looking at things like, I've been looking with my wife over the past couple of months, at wigs, so that when I'm on stage, my hair is always exactly the same. And even as a close up magician, like looking at high quality wigs, not a wig that you get from Smithies, getting a really good decent wig from a wig maker and going, "Right, that's my hair." That's consistent now every single time people see me. Which means that I can dye my hair any colour I want and be whoever I want to be outside of that as well.

[00:04:30.100] - Richard
I guess it's more... So the way you do it, you're more consistent than somebody that doesn't have a performing character, right? Because this is who you are on stage and whichever stage you're on, you're still that person, regardless of the material and the audience that you're performing to.

[00:04:49.570] - Chris
Yeah, absolutely.

[00:04:51.950] - Richard
Can I ask questions? Is that allowed, Gordon?

[00:04:53.910] - Gordon
Yeah, of course. It's a discussion. It's a roundtable.

[00:04:56.900] - Richard
It's a different point of view. So a challenge for family and children entertainers who also perform for adults is, you mentioned the dilution of the brand, I would think the challenge is normally is separating those brands to not confuse the poor loves at IBM that can't cope with the idea of booking someone for their conference who also does kids' birthday parties. Their poor brains explode. So how have you managed that if you have a consistent brand throughout the marketplaces?

[00:05:28.350] - Chris
Well, they're not the people I want to book me. When you say IBM, do you mean the International Brotherhood of Magicians, or do you mean IBM as in the business machine?

[00:05:39.060] - Richard
Yeah. To be amended.

[00:05:41.250] - Gordon
Either, probably, to be honest.

[00:05:44.070] - Chris
So, for example, there's gigs that I want and there's gigs that I don't want, so I don't want to go to a boring, stuffy dinner and do close-up magic. Because the close-up magic that I do is stupid as well. This Scorpion thing just came out and everyone's going, "Oh, it's ridiculous. Why would you have a Scorpion with you?" I'm like, "Why wouldn't you? That's awesome." And that's, I saw it the other day and people going, "Is it April Fool's Day again?" I'm going, "This is wicked. This is a toy Scorpion that can make a ring appear on its tail. It's funny." For me, the gigs that I want to do... I suppose that since 2020 and throwing everything at Frosty and going, I'm not going to be Christopher Frost. That's my home life. That's me as a human. Being Frosty is, if they don't want to hire me, then they don't have to. I'd prefer to recommend them somebody else.

[00:06:50.250] - Richard
Great answer. This is who I am. If I suitable, then book me.

[00:06:53.920] - Chris
Yeah, absolutely.

[00:06:55.720] - Gordon
So, Richard, what do you do? Because you've got one name Richard Pinner, and you go out doing cabaret, close-up, and children's parties all with the same name. I was in the same camp as Frosty. I was finding that I was being overlooked for shows that involved adults; cabaret, close-up, that sort of show. Because I used to get people coming to me saying, "We've got a 40th birthday coming up. We'd like someone to go around the tables. Do you know any proper magicians?" And I understand that a lot of people specialise and they only do children or families entertainment, but there are some people who do multiples. And as you were saying when we were talking to you, Richard, to be a jobbing entertainer, you ideally want to be as versatile as possible. So my solution was to separate out my adult from my children and create two different brands. And in fact, I have two different names; I'm Pip Kennedy when I perform for adults, and I'm Gordon's Magic when I perform for children. But you're just Richard Pinner, right? Has that affected you in any negative ways?

[00:08:08.710] - Richard
So I don't know the answer to that. It has always been a concern that I have these different marketplaces. I have a couple of... I don't know if solutions is the right word, but approaches. I do have very separate, distinct brands for the different marketplaces, but there's too much internet for me to ever pretend I wasn't a children's entertainer at 19 years old. And I wouldn't pretend I wasn't. Actually, the real long term solution is exactly as we just discussed with... in this environment do you prefer Chris or do you prefer Frosty?

[00:08:50.740] - Chris
Chris.

[00:08:51.510] - Richard
Okay, we just discussed with Chris, which is that even though they are very separate brands, my image for entertaining children, and image when I'm performing for adults, I don't mind either of those clients seeing the other brand. I think the way I approach entertaining children is still acceptable for people that would book me for an after dinner cabaret in a conference environment. It's in no way embarrassing to me.

[00:09:21.350] - Gordon
You dress in a suit when you perform for children. So you look very smart, you look very suave, which is fine if you are then being seen as that character from someone who wants to book you for a cabaret, for example. It's just a different audience, effectively.

[00:09:38.400] - Richard
Yeah. In my head, I want to think someone who's considering spending a large portion of their entertainment budget for the evening on me for their big do would also look at my kid's website and go, "Oh right, if I had or I do have kids, I would book him."

[00:09:52.990] - Chris
Yeah, that makes total sense. Because I would say the same thing. I want people that … So let's say I'm at Legoland. I've only ever worked at Legoland once. But let's say I'm at Legoland in the hotel, doing my cabaret show. It's all for the kids, really. But then at least 50% of that audience, if not more than 50%, because there might be one child with two parents, there might be grandparents and stuff like that, are adults in that audience, I want them to watch the show that I'm watching. And let's make no secret to the fact that it costs a fortune to stay at Legoland for the night; so they've got money. I want them to watch it and go, "That was really good. I want to hire that guy to do...," not a kid's party, but... Because I suppose what the thing is, is if the kids' show's got really good magic and it's strong good magic, then they can tell that you're a good magician.

[00:10:58.090] - Gordon
So does that influence what you choose to perform at those types of events? So what I'm asking is, are you there to entertain the adults as well as the children, even if you've only just been booked to perform for the children?

[00:11:14.410] - Chris
Yes. I would say yes.

[00:11:16.870] - Gordon
Because you find it easier, right? If you get the adults on the side, then they'll enjoy it. And if the parents are enjoying it, the children normally will enjoy it as well. But you're also giving off a good image. You're getting a bigger audience. The people aren't going to be talking, etc, there's so many pros to doing that.

[00:11:34.010] - Richard
I think it's our responsibility to... So my view is I'm doing a show for the children. They are my prime focus. I wouldn't pull out an adult's trick and make them watch it in the same way as I know children might still enjoy a show I'm doing for adults. So it's definitely aimed at the children. I think if you're the kind of performer, and I get the impression we all are, who expect people to pay attention, then you need to do a show that's worthy of their attention.

[00:12:00.710] - Chris
Yeah.

[00:12:01.860] - Richard
There was a great entertainer, he might still be working, who I had never met and heard lots about, got booked loads for three, four and five year olds and never for older ones. A very physical performer, had children climbing over him, and it was all very chaotic. There's no way he could expect attention from the adults. And I don't believe he ever did.

[00:12:21.640] - Chris
Is that the American? Is he American?

[00:12:23.980] - Richard
No. I don't mind saying his name because I'm very complimentary of him. Adam Ant. Everyone heard his name a lot, and I heard lots of compliments about him. But that style of performing can't expect all the adults to sit down as the back rows. If you're going to want that, then you have to do a show like a pantomime that works for everyone, even though we're entertaining them.

[00:12:49.900] - Gordon
And I think you need to grab the attention of the parents right at the beginning so that they look and they sit up and they take note and they go, "Actually, I wasn't thinking I was going to enjoy this, but it looks like it could be a lot of fun. I'm going to watch."

[00:13:02.890] - Richard
So I don't take the approach of grabbing their attention. I tell them to stop what they're doing and come and sit down because the show's starting. It does mean I only have a minute to make myself... Just like doing a corporate cabaret. Doing a wedding is different because everyone's come to see what the bride and groom have put on for them.

[00:13:19.510] - Chris
Yep.

[00:13:20.010] - Richard
Indeed, you described a show at Legoland, everyone's on holidays. "Oh, what are we doing now?" We're doing a corporate cabaret, you're coming between them and the bar, or between them and whatever it was they were... No-one's asked to see you. And I think if you make the parent's watch, same deal. They thought they might get a glass of champagne or a cup of coffee with their friends. So you've got to be really good, really quickly, for everyone.

[00:13:42.250] - Chris
My opening trick is I ask the children who believes in magic and who doesn't believe in magic. I tell them everything I'm going to do is fake because you don't need to tell me it's fake. But one of the children who puts their hand up to say they don't believe in magic, I go, "Okay, you're right, but let me show you something." So I pick the most cynical looking child I can and do... I can't remember what the name of the trick is called. But it's a card trick. It's basically an invisible deck with a really cynical child.

[00:14:26.830] - Gordon
And make them into a believer right at the beginning. Is that what you're saying?

[00:14:29.860] - Chris
Well, I don't make them believe because I tell them everything's fake.

[00:14:34.350] - Richard
What is real then?

[00:14:39.370] - Chris
Well, I say, "look," I say, "magic does exist, but it doesn't happen here. It happens here. It happens in your head." So it's not what I'm doing, it's what you believe. So if you don't believe it, you don't need to tell me because I know that what I'm doing in my hands isn't magic. What you're doing in your head is magic. It needs imagination, belief, and it's made of wishes. And then I go into the next thing. The first time I ever saw magic was when I was at the circus and the clown made a wish. And so that's my second part of the opener. But the first bit I do, I say to them, "look, it's not what I'm doing, it's what you're doing." By the time we've got through that, it takes the elephant out of the room and you don't get kids going, "I know how you did that." "And this bit here." "I know this one." Because you've said "you don't need to tell me that."

[00:15:32.220] - Richard
You mentioned earlier you try and do strong magic. You mentioned earlier that you include strong magic. Excellent. So what do you think is... And I don't mean in reality, in the discussing whether magic is real quotes or fake quotes. What's the moment that you think's happening when you make kids gasp or say "wow," or start the sentence "what the..." When they don't even know how to finish it?

[00:15:59.600] - Chris
Yeah, yeah.

[00:16:01.340] - Richard
So what is that then?

[00:16:03.480] - Chris
That's magic.

[00:16:07.400] - Gordon
They've interpreted it as being magic in their head. Is that what you're saying?

[00:16:13.250] - Chris
Yeah. It's magic for them, but it's not something I've done.

[00:16:17.410] - Richard
It's exactly... You've just done it. And the way they say, in the same way as it doesn't matter what you say, it's how it's received that counts. If you didn't mean to be unkind, it doesn't matter if it's received as being unkind. Same here. You may not think what you're doing is magic, but that's what you're creating. So it is magic.

[00:16:34.620] - Chris
Yes.

[00:16:36.630] - Richard
I'm saying it's more important than you are thinking.

[00:16:42.290] - Gordon
But the other thing is, do you not say you're a magician, or do you say you're an entertainer of children? If you're a magician, then obviously you are... Either magic things happen around you or to you, or magic happens to other people, or you do the magic, basically.

[00:17:02.610] - Chris
But I'm not magic in my show. The things that are around, the magic wand is magic.

[00:17:10.950] - Gordon
So things around you happen, and you don't quite understand it. So this is one of two things that I think people do. I've got friends of mine who are exactly the same. They're not the ones that do the magic. They let the children do all the magic. They just happen to be there and the children are fixing it. Give me a sec. And then the other side of it is that, "yes, I'm the magician. I'm making the magic happen. And I'm here to show you and I want you to join in and have fun as we do it." So you're of the opinion that magic happens around you. I think Richard is the other. I think you're the, "I'm the magician. You're going to join in and help me and we're going to have a lot of fun."

[00:17:53.220] - Richard
Yes, but I kind of remove myself from this conversation, the either/or, because I make no claims or statements. I just do it. But also I consider a bar for me is they don't know how it's done. And if they think they do, I will change the formatting. You can't fix it in that moment.

[00:18:24.390] - Chris
It's rare that happens, but sometimes you just get something out like a deck of cards and there's that kid. Before you've even done anything, "I know how this is done."

[00:18:36.330] - Richard
And if you don't answer it, as far as the parents are concerned, all they've heard is, "Oh, they've got him."

[00:18:42.050] - Chris
Yeah.

[00:18:42.460] - Richard
And that's no good for anyone.

[00:18:45.040] - Chris
But by saying at the beginning, "you don't need to tell me that," kids listen, I think, and then they don't say it.

[00:18:55.890] - Richard
A line... So what I say, a child says, "Oh, it's not going to happen," or, "Oh, I've seen it." They say, "I've seen this before." I say, "Really? What happens?" Most commonly, that's the end of the conversation because they don't really.

[00:19:08.670] - Chris
Yes.

[00:19:09.210] - Richard
But if they say something's going to happen, I will either say, "Oh, that's a brilliant trick, but it's not what we're doing." Or I might try and do it. Sometimes I just try and follow along with the nonsense and see how far we can get.

[00:19:21.400] - Chris
That's brilliant. Yesterday, I bought a change bag out, a common or garden change bag, looks like one of the ones you get in the church. A little girl turned around, and she was the girl on stage with me and I'd just done my Sponge Ball routine, which is my clown's noses. And I say, "and the last thing we're going to do is we're going to get you to send this." I do do the magic in that respect, but I'm telling a story about something that happened many, many years ago. So even though I'm doing the magic, it's a recollection of memory rather than me doing magic. It's me telling a story, which definitely means that I'm not doing the magic because it's something that happened a long, long time ago, and I'm just showing them. Does that make sense? But as I pulled out this change bag, the little girl went, "I've got one of these." I went, "Oh, have you?" And I just passed it to her and I said, "So you know exactly how to send this nose back to the clown then, to the circus." And she does. She's got a change bag. She's got one. So I stood on one side of the stage and threw the ball in the air. She caught it in the bag and then I waived the wand over the top so I didn't touch the bag went nowhere near it. And then she turned it inside out and everybody in the audience went, "ahhhhh," because I hadn't gone anywhere near the bag. Everyone had seen the ball go in and it disappeared, because she knew what to do with it. And I was just like, "oh, that is fantastic. I wish I could do that every single time."

[00:20:46.970] - Gordon
See, I think that's really important because with close-up magic, for example, they always say that it's much more powerful magic if it happens in the spectator's hands. So by having the kid do the magic, I mean, I make a bunny rabbit appear and I don't do it. The birthday child does it, or the person who's helping me does it, and they get all the credit for it. I don't take any credit for making the bunny. It's all down to them. But that's the last thing I do in my show. So it's a bit like "I've been doing magic. You've been joining me. You've been learning the magic word. Now you've been able to do some magic yourself." And I think that's why it gets such a... Well, apart from it being a cute, fluffy bunny, but I think it's one of the reasons it gets such good reactions because the child has done the magic and not the magician.

[00:21:34.020] - Richard
So I have a question that goes back to something we've commented on.

[00:21:38.690] - Gordon
Yeah, go on.

[00:21:39.660] - Richard
We both commented on, which is that doing a show for children or family that then gets you the wedding anniversary or significant birthday gig. I've never mastered this. I get so few transitions, either way actually, but so few transitions from kid shows to adult close-up gigs that it's not even worth mentioning. I couldn't even remember the last one. But I'm aware of people who do it very well, and do very well out of it. So you've both mentioned it. I'd be interested to hear what you think makes that transition from clients from kid shows to adult shows.

[00:22:20.860] - Gordon
I think it's a difficult one to answer. I think for me, I try and do everything I can to make the experience good for people. And to do that, you need them to like you, as a person. And they also need to trust you that you're going to do a good job. And so I think for me, if I'm performing at a children's event, and I quite often, if I'm going on to an adult event, I'll mention, because they say, "Are you done for the day?" I say, "Oh, no, actually, I've got another two to go." "Two?" "Yeah, I've got another children's party. And then in the evening, I've got a 40th wedding... Not a 40th wedding, 40th birthday coming up." They go, "Oh, do you do that as well?" And I said, "Yeah, yeah." And I think from that, it gets to a point when they go, "Well, we trust this guy. We know he's going to be good. So in my head, we didn't realise he did that. But now we do. We'll bank that for later on." Does that make sense?

[00:23:23.580] - Richard
It does.

[00:23:24.220] - Gordon
Are you similar, Chris?

[00:23:27.070] - Chris
I don't think I've ever really thought about it. The time that it happened to me, that stuck out to me was... So I've got some riskier lines in my adult show than I do in my kid show. So it's a very very similar show. But when I do my vent routine, the puppet is naughtier in the adult show. And I went to vent the line that I would say in the adult show and I lost my flow because there isn't a lot of improv with the puppet, where there is with magic. And the puppet went to say, what it went to say. And I went, "oh, no, wait, you can't say that. This is a kid show." And I went, "I'm so sorry. I just need to go back to my..." And it went, "You messed that up didn't you." And I was like, "Yeah." And afterwards, I had parents come up to me and go, "You do an adult show as well with the puppet?" And I was like, "Yeah." And I think I got three bookings off the back of it. But it was like a...

[00:24:44.610] - Gordon
Do you mess up every time now?

[00:24:47.460] - Chris
No, because it's really difficult to write in. So when you write a pantomime and you write those bits in that go wrong, or there are parts of shows that I write that are bits that go wrong, it's really hard to write that with that bit. I have tried to write it in. It's really difficult because I started saying it, it's stopping saying it before you say it, and it's really difficult to act it. And then because I lost my place in my script, I had to go back a bit and then start again, which everybody found very funny. So the last 15, 20 minutes is my vent act of my show. So by this point, adults are watching because it's the vent act and they like that bit, whether it's naughty or not. But yeah, it said about the... I was like, "That's part of the adult show. You can't say that." As I was trying to think of what the next bit was, and then I got three bookings off of it. I got a 60th birthday party, I got a wedding, and they were all totally different families. But yeah, I have tried to write it in, but I can't. It's really difficult.

[00:26:13.630] - Gordon
You've reminded me of something that... This is a bit of an aside, but I know that Richard will enjoy this. We had a mutual friend for a long, long time who's sadly no longer with us, Pete McCahon. And he had certain routines that he performed in different contexts. So he had the same effect, but two different routines that go with it. He did a lot of church shows. He did a lot of non-church shows. So he had two presentations, a gospel presentation and a non-gospel presentation. And he used to do this handcuff escape. And it used to make me laugh every time because he got to this point where from the beginning to about halfway through, the routine was exactly the same. And then when got to the certain point when he's about to get himself out of the handcuffs, he had two different routes he could go, one about gospel presentation and one completely non-gospel presentation. And every time he got to that point, I was watching very closely and you could see his eyes just flick up and then down to go, "Right, where are we? Which way am I going? Right, this way." And then he'd continue with the routine. And it just reminded me, a complete aside, nothing to do with what we're talking about. But it is interesting that you've got the same routine or the same prop, if you like, but different routines for different audiences with it.

[00:27:41.880] - Chris
Yeah.

[00:27:42.750] - Richard
I don't do that.

[00:27:45.000] - Gordon
You have completely separate routines for completely different audiences?

[00:27:49.560] - Richard
Yeah. So apart from a rope trick that manages to find its way into everything, yeah, that rope trick, in every environment I've ever performed in, from time to time, I don't like to duplicate anything. I don't take kids' routines and work them in cabaret or the other way around or close-up. I don't do any. I like to have a completely separate. In part, it's so that I never have to consider which combinations of things are going together.

[00:28:23.160] - Chris
Yeah.

[00:28:25.040] - Richard
Yeah I just leave them in their own boxes. Literally in their own box.

[00:28:31.210] - Gordon
So, the world that we're living in now is very different to when Richard and I started, for example. And so social media is quite a big part, or could be a big part of what we do. Getting new bookings, putting your brand out there, basically creating content that we know that people are going to go looking for. If people want to book us, they're going to type our name in and see what comes up. Is this something... Because we've got two generations here because when you mentioned about your prom, Chris, it's like, yeah, I never had a prom. But we've got two generations, so I'd be interested just to know how important social media or promoting yourself online brings in work for you, or how important it is to your business. So shall we start with Richard on this one? And then we'll come back to Chris.

[00:29:34.120] - Richard
Yeah. So it is important in one respect, which I'll get to in a second. It's not a big deal for me. My Facebook, Instagram is not a community. Which I think actually harks back to the conversation we were just having about work transitioning between kids and cabaret, or kids and close-up. That doesn't happen for me. And I think it's because they're not the same people that book me for those two things. So I don't have a community of people who love Richard Pinner. It doesn't work that way for me. However, it's important that I have established and good quality social media for social proof. As you mentioned, Gordon, that is where people go and look. You'll often get, well, not often, occasionally get, "Can we go to YouTube and see some videos of you?" "No, not for kids' shows." There's one showreel on the website, and that took ages to put together. It's a nightmare. See as many clips as you like of me doing card tricks for people or standing on a stage. That's easy. So you do need to curate that, I think. And you either need to be completely out there, completely open, like a radio DJ has this choice, right? You're either completely open and your listeners know your life, or you're very careful about the stage version of yourself that you present to everybody out there. But some people will enjoy your politics and others won't. And if it's the people who... If you want to work for the people who agree with your views, then make sure you make them clear. If you want to stay as candy floss, make sure you don't.

[00:31:11.380] - Gordon
Okay. Yeah, I think I'm a little bit like that as well. I feel like I should be doing more social media. I've got all the accounts set up basically to protect them, to stop someone else from getting them, but I don't use them as much as I should. Chris, are you a social media person?

[00:31:32.390] - Chris
Yeah, yes and no. Again, I had a look through my followers the other day for Frosty Entertainment, which is my social media brand that I have as outside of Christopher Frost. I think if people follow me, then they have to deal with my politics because I am incredibly outspoken, but I am a human and Frosty isn't. Frosty is a character. And we're two different, totally different things.

[00:32:01.900] - Richard
Can I pause you there to ask a question? Does that mean that you keep your private accounts away from your clients effectively?

[00:32:11.160] - Chris
Yeah, my private accounts, unless they add me on Facebook and we've got on really well with each other, which occasionally happens. I've got clients so Bella and Alex, I did their wedding in 2018. We probably meet up once a month and have a coffee and we just became really close friends and really happy. So I've got them on Facebook. I have got clients on Facebook, but most of my clients are on the 'Frosty Entertainment' page and not on the human, the 'Chris Frost' page.

[00:32:48.540] - Gordon
Yeah, I think it's important to separate them out because I agree with Richard, my views aren't necessarily those of my performing character.

[00:32:58.900] - Chris
So I bought a Boris Johnson puppet and had a wonderful sketch where it didn't say anything in my show. So all it did throughout the... It came up occasionally with party political broadcasts and stuff like this. And then we'd go, [mumbling], didn't say anything. Very easy to do an impression of Boris Johnson. You just repeat your vows, A E I O U. And you've got Boris Johnson. And I did this in the show, but it didn't say anything. It wasn't political. It was just a Boris Johnson puppet with A E I O U. And people liked it. It was funny. It was a recurring joke. And a lady came to me after one of my shows, and this was in a holiday park, and she went, "I would never book you for anything. You're pushing your political views on children." And I thought to myself, "What does she..."

[00:33:56.210] - Richard
What was the view she thought you were pushing?

[00:33:59.840] - Chris
I don't know.

[00:34:00.900] - Richard
Pro or anti Boris Johnson? Because it could be either way. You could go either way with that, right?

[00:34:06.470] - Chris
Yeah. And I thought to myself, "I don't want you to book me anyway." But if that's your view on the silly puppet, then you're probably not my client. But yes, social media wise for Frosty Entertainment, I looked at my followers and worryingly, I do have a community of people that watch me, but they're all bloody magicians, which fascinated me. I was like, "Oh, okay. Lots of magicians are following me and not clients." But then I also had a flip through some other magicians that, my competitors then, although I don't really see it that way because I don't see it as competition. But I was looking at some other entertainers because I look at them sometimes for ideas and stuff like that because it's difficult to do social media sometimes and keep it relevant and going and without just going, "here I am at a gig, here I am at a gig, here I am at a gig." Henry White once said, "Oh, it's that time of year again where everybody posts a photograph of themselves with a room full of empty tables." It's the "my office for tonight" thing. You can post that over and over again, but it's not, you're just going to lose followers. It's not relevant to anything. So I was looking at somebody else's. And the last time they posted, after having a lot of posts, was in January. And I thought, "Is that the last time they've worked in January?" And then in the photo that they printed, which was, 'I love this hall,' and there's a photograph of their set up in the hall. And one of the mums had commented in it saying, "I love this photograph. This is from so and so's party last year. We loved you." And I thought, Jesus, he's repeating a photograph from last year in January of this year. And I was like, "Oh," I was like, I'm sure that the guy is busy. I know that he's busy, but his social media makes him look as though he's not busy. And that's really poor social proof. It's probably better not to have the social media and not update it, than it is to have it.

[00:36:14.020] - Richard
I think I was bad luck. I think I was bad luck that he got that comment.

[00:36:17.980] - Chris
Oh, totally. Absolutely. But even then, January to April, you've got to be posting at least once a week.

[00:36:24.040] - Richard
Oh yeah.

[00:36:24.850] - Gordon
Well, I think you have to be consistent, don't you? So whatever your consistency is, if it's once a month, then make it once a month. If it's once a week, once a week, whatever it is, make it consistent. Because as you say, if you do stop, people go, "Oh, he's obviously given up. He's not doing it anymore."

[00:36:39.340] - Chris
With social media, when I first started and really pushing myself, it was mega important to me, but I was a hell of a lot cheaper. And I used to get a lot of bookings off of social media. Now, nobody books off of social media. Not Facebook anyway. Instagram they do. Instagram's really really good for corporate bookings. So if you're looking to be booked by a festival or a shopping centre, all of their people, the people that are in HR, I guess, that book, are exactly the right people that are in that Instagram bubble and they know how to use it and find the right acts for them. So if you want to get booked, say, Green Bell Festival or, I'm trying to think of festivals now and they've all gone out of my head. But if you want to be booked by a festival, like a big festival, then you want to be on Instagram. And annoyingly, and I've not even tried to tackle this beast, is TikTok. I know people on TikTok that are making thousands of pounds from bookings off of their TikTok videos, which is mad considering that it's absolute drivel.

[00:37:54.850] - Richard
I should try it again. I looked at it once and thought, "a 50 year old man should not be on here."

[00:37:59.640] - Chris
Yeah, that's an issue. Obviously, when you first go onto it, it starts throwing you the most popular things, which is usually teenage girls doing a dance. As you continue to use it, the algorithms start throwing you things that will interest you, like Magic Singh, doing magic and stuff like that. So, apparently. Again, it's something I've not tried to tackle. But the more you use it, the more it starts throwing the right things at you.

[00:38:34.550] - Richard
Hang on, before you move on I've got two comments. Hang on. One is regarding using old photos. There's a production company I work for a lot, and they're never posting in real time. It's always photos they've had taken and then events from ages ago get put up, but they never mention dates anyway. So I'm fine with that. I think the big question we all have to ask and individually, we can't come to a consensus, is what is it for? And then you know how to approach it. Personally, I just need it to be there when someone wants to check I've done it before.

[00:39:14.050] - Gordon
That's for social proof. So it's not that you're trying to encourage people to book you. It's that you're there to show that you've been there and you've done that. You've got the experience.

[00:39:24.890] - Richard
And I'm not trying to turn it into a separate revenue stream, which it is legitimately.

[00:39:29.290] - Chris
Yeah, it is now, isn't it?

[00:39:31.320] - Gordon
Yeah, it can be.

[00:39:34.380] - Chris
As a magician, that means I don't really like the separate revenue stream of being a magician on camera to a screen. I think it means changing a lot of what you do.

[00:39:50.510] - Gordon
So that's an interesting concept, isn't it? Julius Dean has made a living out of doing very short magical snippets on all the social medias, but I don't know how many enquiries he gets for live gigs. I'm guessing he probably gets quite a few. I don't know. But should we be having little snippets up there doing Instagram magic just to put something up there and get people interested in what we do and see if they want to book us? That sort of thing?

[00:40:28.370] - Richard
So, ok it comes down to what you're trying to achieve. So I don't want to talk about him, but let's take someone else like Dynamo, for example. He was already a really good magician.

[00:40:44.410] - Chris
Yeah.

[00:40:44.670] - Richard
He worked very hard to become an overnight success. He is that cliché. But that led to the level of enquiries he got for live performances he couldn't do to start with, because he had no way of delivering his level to 1,000 people at a big event. For a few years, his team had to say, "Well, he can come and show your VIPs some card tricks in the champagne reception."

[00:41:10.950] - Gordon
Yeah.

[00:41:11.600] - Richard
Quite a long time to work out how to transition that for him. But then he wasn't doing the TV show to get the gig for Deloitte, was he? He was doing it for its own reasons, right? Then they had to work it out. And I think the same is true if you get any level of notoriety or fame through YouTube or any other platform, you may not necessarily, at that point, know how to do the enquiry that comes in. You have to work that out afterwards. We are talking about the other way around, which is we already are and want to continue to be live performers.

[00:41:43.480] - Chris
Yeah.

[00:41:43.980] - Richard
Social media benefits that. And again, it's different again if you were to decide to tour. So for example, direction that Dov Citron is going in, Captain Calamity, he seems to want to do more public. So he needs to build that following so they're ready for him next time he goes back to that venue.

[00:42:09.600] - Chris
So I draw and write things down and I have lots and lots of ideas. And sometimes the ideas that I have are brilliant, fantastic ideas. But one, I mean, this one doesn't need a big budget, but it does need the right venue for it. And to be able to perform it in that venue, I need to have an audience.

[00:42:35.460] - Richard
Yeah.

[00:42:36.640] - Chris
I can't fill the venue with the audience because I can't do that. So I can't do the thing that I want to do because it's not just a case of having the budget to make the thing, it's a case of having the budget, the venue, and the audience to put into the venue.

[00:42:57.350] - Gordon
So basically, you're creating things to put on the shelf that are ready to go, or ready to be worked on once you get to a level that you can do that. If that's what you want to do, right?

[00:43:09.830] - Chris
I just write everything down that comes into my head.

[00:43:13.460] - Richard
The challenge there is the steps towards that are potentially going through bankruptcy. Because to go towards, "I want to fill a 1,000 seater so I can do this," that's performing in tiny little spaces for practically no money and building it up and making people aware of you within that environment. You can't just become part of a touring production show. You need to be aware... People need to be aware of you in that world. And in the meantime, you've got to make a living. And that gets in the way of grand ideas, is not starving.

[00:43:50.290] - Chris
I guess what I do with writing down these ideas with that Gordon, is that when I... So I speak about my ideas at the end of my lectures, when I go and do a lecture somewhere I go, "this is the first bit, this is everything that I perform." And then the second bit is, "this is how I use my imagination and come up with these ideas. Here are my ideas." And I've written a 45 minute haunted doll's house thing. And the last lecture that I was at... It's not for me. I enjoyed writing it. I loved writing it. But if I walk on stage and go, "Hello," nobody's going to take seriously the haunted doll's house. So it was never for me. Maybe it's for somebody else. And I talk about it in my lecture and somebody said, "I'd like to buy that off of you. I'd like to buy that idea from you." And I was like, "Okay." So maybe it's not about that. Maybe it's not about performing for me. Maybe it's about seeing it performed by somebody that can perform it. Because I don't have the fan base and I don't want to be famous. So I might never have the fan base.

[00:45:03.760] - Gordon
Too late, Chris. Too late. You've got all these magicians following you already.

[00:45:08.870] - Chris
Yeah, but they're not the right people.

[00:45:14.520] - Richard
Well, they are if you want to license concepts.

[00:45:17.500] - Gordon
Well, yeah, that's pretty much what you should be doing with anything that doesn't suit you. You should have a way that you can offer these for sale to other people who think it would be perfect for them.

[00:45:33.020] - Chris
Yeah.

[00:45:33.320] - Gordon
Because then you will get to see your creativity in reality, which I think is what you want, isn't it? Yeah

[00:45:43.710] - Chris
Yeah.

[00:45:43.980] - Richard
12 Acts.

[00:45:47.230] - Chris
Yeah.

[00:45:47.840] - Richard
The other half in 12 parts. I don't know what it would be.

[00:45:51.260] - Chris
And then I can work on my stupid things like, how do you get a signed card into a block of Cheddar cheese? Which is a surprisingly difficult thing to do.

[00:46:05.620] - Richard
You need a slot in a chute, right?

[00:46:08.740] - Chris
Yeah, but a sealed block of Cheddar cheese.

[00:46:14.470] - Richard
Like in a Cathedral City bag still? I love it. That's not what this meeting is about, but it's an interesting...

[00:46:23.190] - Chris
No, it's.

[00:46:23.840] - Gordon
It's too late. Richard's brain is already thinking about it. That's the thing when you talk to a consultant, someone who does consultancy for shows and things, and they just come up with these weird concepts, and you have to figure out a way to do them. Maybe that's something you should look into, Chris. Maybe you should look at... Obviously, not anywhere near Richard because I'm sure he's got his customers. He doesn't want any competitors coming in there. But maybe that's an outlet for you, doing some sort of consultancy with all your creativity. There you go. You heard it here first, guys. You heard it here. When Chris Frost is working on his next production that's not for him, this is where the ideas came from.

[00:47:09.550] - Richard
You just said, Gordon, "nowhere near Richard, obviously," and that made me think, I never think of where people live as being where they work. When I lived in central London, that was a bit different. But outside of that, I don't think we would clash anymore if Chris lived 10 doors away. Do you know I don't even know where in the world you do live, but we don't clash it with work, and I just don't see it. You live the other side of London to me, right, Gordon? You always have. And yet...

[00:47:47.130] - Gordon
Yeah, whenever you move, I have to move as well. So I'm exactly the other side of London.

[00:47:51.700] - Richard
We've always booked you. I think there is a business model that is, "I am the magician for X," and you try not to work more than 10 miles from home. That's never occurred to me.

[00:48:07.590] - Chris
No.

[00:48:08.800] - Gordon
No, I don't think it matters when you're doing consultancy because that's wherever the...

[00:48:13.650] - Richard
No, at all. I'm thinking kids' shows as well. Consultancy is everywhere, it's always somewhere, but kids' shows as well. I'd love to work on my doorstep because that's so much. And when we lived in central London, I did that a bit more. But everywhere is somewhere.

[00:48:29.500] - Gordon
I think for me, most of the gigs I get as my bread and butter, so the kids' parties, most of those are within maybe 15, 20 miles of where I live. They're... I think I choose, I turn away ones that are the other side of London because I know that it's going to take me so long to travel there and to travel back that on a weekend day, which is a prime day, I'm going to be cutting down the number of shows I can do. I try and make sure I work in this area. The problem you have then is you get the same kids over and over again. I know Richard's answer to this, but do you do the same material? Do you do different material? Do you get the same entertainers that work in the same circuit, the same area, picking up on the tricks you do? So you end up doing a routine that's similar to someone else's, as in maybe the same prop, but you're doing it to a brand new group of children that have never seen you before, but they've seen another entertainer in your area who does that. I get a lot of people. In fact, I used to do it for you, Richard. I used to do it at the park shows. I used to tell everyone my magic word, which is... Give me a second. I used to tell everyone my magic word, which is "Gordon's Magic," and I used to say, "Next week, Richard Pinner's coming. And if he asks what the magic word is, you all know what it is now, don't you? It's Gordon's Magic. So make sure you tell him that."

[00:50:10.030] - Richard
I really thought you used 'Sizzling Sausages.'

[00:50:13.900] - Gordon
I did. For a long, long time. I did. But I changed it because other people were using it. I think that's probably why I changed it.

[00:50:22.160] - Richard
I think you changed it because it's a good idea to get them all to say your brand.

[00:50:27.020] - Gordon
I think it's...

[00:50:28.100] - Richard
A great idea, right?

[00:50:29.190] - Gordon
And that's why I went with Gordon's Magic, because there's a lot of entertainers who call themselves Magic and then their name. So there's Magic Dave, there's Magic Paul, Magic Steve, Magic Sam. But I like the idea of Gordon's Magic because it works in two ways. So it's Gordon is magic, and it's also the magic that belongs to Gordon, depending on where the apostrophe is effectively. So I can easily use that as a magic word. It's Gordon's Magic. It works really well and it also gets my name remembered by everyone. I've had entertainers come up to me going, "Yeah, I've done a group of kids that you did recently, and we know that because they all said. "Gordon's Magic." Which is funny when you come across another entertainer who the kids have seen and they tell you what they remember from the show.

[00:51:21.940] - Richard
It used to be the case that you could tell who they'd seen at the beginning of the show when you ask who knows any magic words. But now, as we've discussed before, the marketplace is so diluted, they may have been to 20 other birthday parties that year and not seen a magician.

[00:51:37.970] - Gordon
Yeah, it's true.

[00:51:39.860] - Chris
Because I try and write everything to be 100% original. Even if it's like the Pompom prayer stick, that is like, "Okay, let's take that and make it completely different." It does the same thing, but the routine is different. I had a little run of shows and children when I was doing my vent routine was saying, "Oh, this is the same as X does with X." And I went, "Oh, well, that's annoying because I've written this." And I called them up and I said, "Hi there." I was like, "Hi, it's Frosty." And they were like, "Oh, I love you." They were like, "It's really nice to talk to you. I do your puppet routine." And I went, "Yes, that's why I'm calling you up. Can you please stop doing my puppet routine?" But they had no idea that they shouldn't have been doing it. They were really pleased to hear from me. I explained to them, "Look, I write all this stuff myself, it was a bit of a shock to me that somebody else was doing it." And that's why I started lecturing. I thought. But what I do now with what you're saying regarding, if they see me before, is I can't remember what I've done in the last show. And what I do is I carry two flight cases, well, one flight case and an ottoman. Absolutely full of stuff. And I've got about seven hours worth of material to do a 45 minute show. And so I don't know what I'm going to do until I do it, which is great because it means that the shows are never the same. All I know is that the last 20 minutes, 15 to 20 minutes is the vent routine, but the rest of it is made up on the spot.

[00:53:42.010] - Richard
Brilliant.

[00:53:43.230] - Chris
And that's why I want to buy Sam Fitton's solo.

[00:53:48.000] - Gordon
Yeah, that would suit you nicely.

[00:53:50.920] - Chris
I can just... And now here's the next bit of music for this trick and that trick and everything like that.

[00:53:57.670] - Gordon
I can't do that. I've got to plan my shows. I've got to make sure I know what's coming and make sure that it's got a bit of light and shade and the tricks aren't going to be too similar. I have to plan everything.

[00:54:12.580] - Chris
I do do that, though, as well. I just sort of know... So the first thing is this, and then the second. There's a graph in my head which is like this and goes up and down like that. But like, an invisible deck is the same impact of being really really good as making an appearing cane appear. But the appearing cane's quicker, so it's better for smaller children. But it's a, "Wow, that's amazing." They've got the same impact, and there's different impact ratings of things. Then you've got things which will make kids scream and shout, the look, don't see thing. So for look, don't see, I've got my mummy trick, which has got the mummy popping out the side. I've got the umbrella, which is a recurring gag. If I manage to get the umbrella out, I love it because the umbrella always pops open when I'm not looking and then put it down and then pops open and put it down. I've got the hand, which is the freaky body illusion hand, which moves when I'm not looking at it. So they're all the same. They're all the same impact. They are interchangeable. It doesn't matter. But the hand at the moment is better than the umbrella and the mummy because of Wednesday Addams. So that's got the "Let's Dance, Dance, Dance" underneath it, which the kids all like at the moment. So that's my preference at the moment to go for is the hand, even though my favourite is the umbrella.

[00:55:52.200] - Richard
I understand the concept. At each phase of your act, you need something that fits this gap. So do you decide pre-show and get a show ready, or is this stuff all packed and you're literally going for the things in that moment when you decide what's coming next?

[00:56:16.030] - Chris
Pre-show, pre-show. Unless something's not working. Unless I have to take a change of direction, which I don't like having to do. Generally, I think I can tell pre-show what the kids are like and stuff. I take a few minutes to warm into them. And it's literally only moving things from here to here, from there to there, and from here to here. It's not a big deal where things are. But my flight case is just full of stuff. And then there's the shelf and the shelf has got that show on it. And the ottoman has really just got the puppet in it and a few other bits around it. But yeah, different things for different kids, different ages. Sometimes you walk in somewhere and you're shocked. You're like, "Oh God, I wasn't expecting this lot." And you've got to change what you're doing, I find. Because the mummy routine, even though it's a look, don't see thing, it's Farmyard Frolicks mixed with, Oh Mummy. And so it's a longer, paced out routine than making the hand appear, which is a short routine. And the umbrella is a go on forever routine.

[00:57:44.870] - Gordon
And can people get this mummy trick direct from you by any chance?

[00:57:51.230] - Chris
Yeah, they can. But that wasn't why I was talking about it.

[00:57:56.300] - Gordon
So we are getting to the end of our time together, do either of you have any tips on handling that problem child during a show? How would you deal with a kid that was shouting out or wouldn't sit down or is basically just causing chaos, elves as we call them in the Trix in the Stix community. Any ideas?

[00:58:26.290] - Richard
Yeah.

[00:58:26.660] - Gordon
We all get them, right?

[00:58:29.100] - Chris
Yeah.

[00:58:29.290] - Richard
Two or three things I have for this. Generally, the disruptive child just requires a little extra care. They're having a difficult childhood, that type of child. And you are the only person in the room that's not met this child before. They're known to the class, and they're known to the parents. I don't embarrass the parents. I don't encourage... You don't even encourage them to parent at that point. I give them the moment they need and give them the time they need. Then there's the child that is just naughty. Invariably, they're not there on time, so they haven't learnt the rules like everyone else had when they've been sat down. For that child, I don't mind asking the parent if it comes to it. But generally, I find, something that Wally Thompson taught me, Wallygog the Wizard, way back. You tell the child that what they're doing is wrong, and then you are looking at them the whole time. I don't mean staring at them, but you keep them in your gaze so that whenever they look to you to check if you're still looking at them, you are, until they stop checking, and now they think you're watching the whole time and they stop. But I would also say it doesn't happen very often. Bad children, really.

[00:59:57.680] - Gordon
It's normally if there's some sort of distraction, or something outside of your control, which is something that we all try to stop happening.

[01:00:07.740] - Richard
I don't mind losing one child. If you've got a busy party, you can lose one child to wanting to go and get a crisp. If they come back with it, though, and you lose two, that has to be stopped immediately. Every child will choose snacks and free play over sitting down for a magic show.

[01:00:25.220] - Gordon
Yeah, I agree. Jump on the problem before it becomes problem in whatever way you wish to handle it.

[01:00:36.720] - Chris
There's something which I wanted to try. I haven't tried it yet. I've had this idea of giving... Have you seen Lost?

[01:00:52.130] - Gordon
Yeah. The TV show?

[01:00:54.340] - Chris
The TV show, Lost. Yeah.

[01:00:56.080] - Richard
I was waiting for it to come to a conclusion, and I understand it didn't.

[01:00:59.860] - Gordon
It was such a bad ending. It really was.

[01:01:04.150] - Richard
I don't think that's Chris's point, sorry.

[01:01:06.460] - Gordon
All that time I spent watching the episodes.

[01:01:09.160] - Chris
It was about the journey. But there was a bunker and there was a guy who had to press a button whenever something happened or something. So I've had this idea, which I haven't tried, but I'm going to make one, of having a big red button. And when I get that child, giving them the button and saying, "Keep your eye on this button, I have a job for you. When it lights up, you have to press the button." And having a remote in my pocket, so as soon as the child starts, I press the button in my pocket which lights up their button."

[01:01:50.280] - Richard
So there's a great study by Pavlov that you should read.

[01:01:58.000] - Chris
I think that the child would end up staring at the button because that's their job and occasionally pressing the button. And then maybe at the end, I can make the button explode or something. Not whilst they're holding it.

[01:02:17.010] - Gordon
Depending on how naughty they've been, obviously.

[01:02:19.350] - Richard
I would suggest you keep the button on stage.

[01:02:22.370] - Chris
Yeah.

[01:02:23.020] - Richard
Because you don't give the problem child something to fiddle with.

[01:02:26.390] - Gordon
No. Have them come up to the button.

[01:02:29.100] - Chris
Yeah, have them come up to the button.

[01:02:32.260] - Richard
Yeah.

[01:02:32.550] - Gordon
Because it takes them away from whatever they're doing. So if they're being aggressive towards another child or even play fighting, that sort of thing, they have to actually physically get up and move over to where the button is.

[01:02:45.590] - Chris
Yes. And I was talking to Sam Lane about this. Do you know Sam?

[01:02:49.710] - Gordon
Yeah. Magic Sam.

[01:02:51.910] - Chris
Magic Sam, yeah. And he came up with the idea of, "Oh, yes, this is a good idea with the button. Why don't we make it so that you borrow a ring and at the end of the show, you open the button and inside is the borrowed ring," which makes it have a reason for being there the whole time as well. So that's something which I'm looking at doing in the next couple of months, making this button. At the moment, like you said, Richard, people that turn around and say every week "oh, the Elf this week," and there are those entertainers, I think they should get a different job. I think if this is happening to you a lot, then you're in the wrong business because that child isn't entertained. And if it's happening consistently to you, like you say, the first child is the child that actually needs attention. Like you said, there's no point in even trying to talk to the parents because that kid is not looked after properly.

[01:04:01.770] - Richard
It's a good point. We need to... Sorry to cut across you there. But since you've isolated that child, that child needs to understand that this is not home rules, this is school rules. And then they'll be a different child, most likely.

[01:04:19.570] - Chris
And what you said about the children that miss the beginning, and they haven't heard the rules. So when I first started working as a holiday rep, and I find this when I go to the holiday parks. It's very interesting, depending on what park you go to and how good the entertainment's team are at the park, is that the audience are trained. The audience needs to be trained and we don't have an awful lot of time to train them. There is a school near me, and if I find out that the child goes to that school that they want to book me for a kid's party, I am fully booked. Because the school is so crap at doing anything with the kids that I don't want to work with those kids because all of them are naughty, and there's no way of getting them on board. It's really really hard because the school is more like a zoo rather than a school.

[01:05:23.540] - Richard
But schools... I've never worked at holiday parks, but I can imagine they do have personalities. Schools certainly do. I always ask, and I know most of the London schools, I always ask what school they go to. And if I'm being booked third party, I don't know, as soon as you find out and you see the uniforms or you ask a child, you can learn so much about what this is going to be like. You notice, it's an amazing thing.

[01:05:46.710] - Chris
Do you feel the same way? Are there schools that you particularly dislike performing for?

[01:05:53.340] - Richard
There's certain schools that I know I'm going to have to work harder with.

[01:05:57.780] - Gordon
Yeah, I get that as well.

[01:05:59.570] - Richard
It's going to less easy run. I've never blacklisted a school. I have put marks on certain families that I won't work for again.

[01:06:08.550] - Chris
Yeah.

[01:06:09.010] - Chris
But then what tends to happen is you don't, because you weren't a good match. If you were a good match, you wouldn't have come away with that feeling.

[01:06:16.790] - Gordon
But do you not end up leaving a party and going, "Oh, my goodness, that was so bad. I can't believe how bad that was." And the parents are raving about it. And then they call you up the next year and said "You were so good last year. We'd love to have you back." And you have to think to yourself, "do I want to do this? If I want to do this, what do I want to change? How can I fix what went wrong last time?"

[01:06:41.140] - Richard
Well, a class changes tremendously over the course of a year anyway.

[01:06:44.230] - Gordon
Yeah, but it may not be the children.

[01:06:46.820] - Richard
Especially if they were tough in reception.

[01:06:48.870] - Gordon
The venue, it might be. I remember doing one venue in Putney, which I went back to this same family. They had two kids and I went back to them nine times in total. And they changed venues. But the last venue they stuck on was in Putney. And parking was a 25 minute walk from the venue. And it was a two hour parking. So I had to go back and move the car because I needed three hours to have set up time as well. And also I go back to my car to get my bunny because I do my show part, the second part of my party now. And so I get whatever time they have left for food, which I normally leave about half an hour. I've got 25 minutes to get to my car, 25 minutes to get back again. So I'm running as fast as I can.

[01:07:43.740] - Richard
It doesn't work, does it?

[01:07:44.680] - Gordon
It just doesn't work. I end up back in this... I'm unable to do the show for the next 10 minutes while I'm recovering.

[01:07:53.860] - Richard
It's on my, not the enquiry form, but on the booking form is "where will I park?" now.

[01:08:00.520] - Gordon
Yeah.

[01:08:00.840] - Richard
It has been for a long time. And generally.

[01:08:02.640] - Gordon
I have it as part of the contract. My contract says I need a parking space. If I don't have a parking space, it can impact the length of the show. And leave it to them because it's their choice what the venue is. I have no control over that. That's down to them. And I always recommend they have somewhere where I can get, I say I need to get to the car during the show, during the party, so it needs to be nearby. And it's down to them in the end for me. But there are some venues that I just won't go anywhere near anymore. I've got blacklisted venues.

[01:08:38.480] - Chris
That's something that I've found is that that kid is a different child in a different venue. I have found there is problematic venues. It sounds like the dream. There is one which is a probably five minute walk from my house. So a 20 second drive. It takes longer to turn the car on and switch it off than drive there. Sounds brilliant. Everyone goes, "Oh, yeah, I've got the dream gig. I'm in the venue down the road. That's like literally my village hall." It's horrible. The ceiling is too high. It's made of glass. It's not made of glass, but the sound bounces everywhere. It's horrible. He says doing an interview in a conservatory. The sound never sounds quite right. Everything bounces off of everything and it just doesn't sound very nice. Much as the sound sounds really loud and all that, it's got one of those stupid limiters where if you get the kids to cheer, all the electricity goes off. And on top of that, there's nowhere for the entertainer to go in the right position without making a loop for the kid to run around. You can't get back far enough. And when they have that lunch break bit, the kids start doing that, like they finish at different times. So you always end up with a kid running around in a circle and running behind all your stuff. And I hate that because my favourite place to set up is a corner. So I just hate that venue. And I've gone before, "Oh God, I hate that kid. He's really annoying because he keeps running around in circles." But he's got nothing else to do in that time. And so in that venue, he's a naughty kid. But in another venue, he's not.

[01:10:32.300] - Gordon
What he needs is a button to press.

[01:10:34.860] - Chris
Yeah, give him a button.

[01:10:36.500] - Richard
I think another thing that can affect the good or bad venues, now I've started thinking about it now you've mentioned it, is if the children have learned other rules in that venue before you've had them?

[01:10:48.860] - Chris
Yes.

[01:10:49.870] - Richard
You've got to beat that out of them.

[01:10:52.280] - Chris
Schools are really good places to do kid's parties. And if you get a school that hires out their school hall at the Saturday and Sunday for kids' parties, I love that because the kids go into their school.

[01:11:03.890] - Gordon
They're familiar with it. They know how to act in it.

[01:11:07.920] - Richard
I've been to schools a couple of times recently for parties, and both times it wasn't the birthday family's school.

[01:11:14.030] - Chris
Oh, really?

[01:11:14.600] - Richard
Geographically convenient, but not the one the kids go to.

[01:11:18.900] - Chris
Oh wow.

[01:11:19.670] - Richard
It was nice. They had all the facilities.

[01:11:22.050] - Gordon
Schools are trying to find ways to supplement their income, I guess.

[01:11:27.190] - Richard
I think it's someone knows someone, whenever it's a school, then someone's got an in, isn't it? That's what it is.

[01:11:31.600] - Gordon
So do you find out a venue before you take the booking, or do you take the booking, then find out the venue?

[01:11:39.240] - Chris
So I prefer it to be the take the booking and then... In an ideal world, you go book me and then book the venue. But how many people actually do that?

[01:11:50.340] - Richard
I tend to be on hold whilst they confirm the venue, and then they book me after it. I'm more expensive than the venue so they don't want to get me wrong.

[01:11:57.330] - Chris
Yeah.

[01:11:57.650] - Richard
And also I mention early on, put the date you want, or a couple of dates on hold whilst you juggle everything else. I want to be the easiest part of their day.

[01:12:07.100] - Chris
Yes.

[01:12:08.580] - Gordon
I quite often tell people that they should book whatever's the most important for them. So if that's the entertainment and how the children feel at the end of the party, then book the entertainer first. If it's what décor the hall has, book the venue first. Because for some people, the venue is the most important thing because they're showing off to their parent friends.

[01:12:31.630] - Richard
Well it's getting a venue as well. It's not just which one. We need one that's... The geography is very important and there's not that, well everyone works in a different environment. My world, there aren't that many for any given parent if you're performing in central London.

[01:12:52.350] - Gordon
I have a solution to that. I've just had my son build me an interactive map which has got pins on that map for every venue that I've deemed reasonable for a party, and I send the link to people so they can find out where they are, zoom in on the map. It's a Google map with pins, and it basically has all the information I have. I've just exported it all from my database and imported it. It's figured out where the pins go. It's got the name of the venue, it's got the telephone number of the person you need to book, if I know it. It's a great little system. So if people say to me, "We don't have a venue yet," I send them straight to this page, and it's really really good. I'm really pleased with it. Anyway, we can be talking all night. We've been going for quite a while now, so we need to wrap up. Is there anything that you feel you would like to say, maybe about how children's magic is at the moment, or something about the future of it, or anything you want to just wrap up with?

[01:14:03.900] - Richard
I think the future is safe. It will never stop. The market has changed many times in my career and will continue to change, but there will always be a place for us.

[01:14:15.340] - Gordon
Children are always going to have birthday parties, right? And because of people like your father, children's entertainers are a big part of that now.

[01:14:25.250] - Richard
Yeah, we're established as a breed, right?

[01:14:27.210] - Gordon
Yeah.

[01:14:28.120] - Chris
Yeah.

[01:14:28.480] - Richard
Has come up in this conversation, but important to remember: not everyone is your client, so don't think they should be. And please don't judge yourself by what others do. There is a marketplace for us, but it's not that shared.

[01:14:48.160] - Chris
I agree with that totally. There's so much that people can do. And it's one of those things I've struggled with. I spoke about it with you, Gordon, when we spoke last, I do compare myself a lot with other entertainers, and it's not a very healthy thing to do.

[01:15:17.980] - Gordon
I think you need to differentiate yourself from everyone else to make people want you. It's not that they want a children's entertainer. You want them to want Frosty, they want them to want Richard Pinner, or Gordon's Magic.

[01:15:31.240] - Richard
If your aim is to differentiate yourself from others, then by default, you need to know what the others are doing. My recommendation is don't even look.

[01:15:40.550] - Chris
Yeah, I agree with that.

[01:15:41.260] - Richard
I realise I'm saying this from a really fortunate position that I started with an enormous archive, wealth of information. So possibly I'm not in a good place to advise people who haven't done it yet. You need to get out there and do it to start with, right? But if you're doing it...

[01:15:57.500] - Gordon
You had Wikipedia living in your house with you. Effectively.

[01:16:04.000] - Richard
And then when I got to first go and explore the Magic world, my father's dinner table was Ali Bongo, Pat Page, Alan Shaxon, Michael Bay. It was an incredible place I got to hang out in. I get that. But I can still gift my wisdom, even if it's not very helpful.

[01:16:24.370] - Chris
With the not looking at what other people do as well. Look at that from a point of view of, so this is something which majorly, massively crippled me at the beginning. I looked around in Essex when I first moved to Essex, considering I'd worked in entertainment for a long time. When I moved to Essex with my wife, with a kid on the way and the kid, I looked at what other entertainers my age were charging. Now, other entertainers my age were single, living with their parents, and didn't have kids, a lot of them. So I crippled myself financially by going, "Oh, that's the price you're meant to charge. Let's find the average price for that." Whereas actually, what I needed to do was not look at what everybody else was going and go, "How much do I need to pay out? How much do I need to earn?" Rather than going, "What is the going rate?"

[01:17:19.220] - Richard
The going rate is no way to do it.

[01:17:22.160] - Chris
Looking at other people's prices is a terrible idea.

[01:17:25.640] - Richard
So Jack Delvin's maths for this.

[01:17:28.130] - Gordon
I was just going to say that.

[01:17:29.740] - Richard
How much do I need to earn each year? How many shows do I want to do? Divide one by the other. That's my fee.

[01:17:37.680] - Chris
Yes.

[01:17:38.590] - Richard
I think it's nuts, but it's a way of doing it.

[01:17:43.300] - Gordon
Yeah, I remember... And sometimes it would get to the end of the month and you go, "Well, hang on, I've got this bill to pay and that bill to pay. So the price is going to be this."

[01:17:52.440] - Richard
But he would adapt that math as he went along. That's brilliant.

[01:17:56.200] - Gordon
Yeah. Well, we must wrap up. If people want to get in contact with either of you, because both of you have products for sale, they may even have questions which you may or may not want to talk to people about. But if they do want to contact you, how do they contact you, Chris?

[01:18:15.730] - Chris
Just drop me an email info@magicfrosty.co.uk or just on Facebook, I'm pretty... What do you call it?

[01:18:27.740] - Gordon
Active.

[01:18:27.900] - Chris
Active. That's the word. I'm active on Facebook. Chris Frosty Frost on Facebook is my personal one. But don't be offended about politics. That is the personal one.

[01:18:43.290] - Gordon
Richard?

[01:18:45.180] - Richard
I guess littleshopofmagic.co.uk is my face towards other magicians. I don't like writing much. I'm always happy to chat.

[01:18:55.000] - Gordon
There you go. So there you go. Pick the phone up, give him a call. He will gift you the experience of his wisdom. There you go.

[01:19:02.640] - Richard
Based on my unique journey, which everyone knows.

[01:19:05.070] - Gordon
But we all have that unique journey, and that's what our experience is, isn't it? So thank you, both of you, for spending time with me, and each other and giving us the benefit of your wisdom and your experience. I'd like to wish both of you a very successful year, and career in magic. Thank you for joining us on FACE: The Podcast. And for everyone else, we'll be back very soon. We'll see you on the next podcast. Goodbye, everyone.