[00:00:00.660] - Gordon Drayson
Hello and welcome to FACE: The Podcast, the Family and Children's Entertainers Podcast where we talk to entertainers about what they do and how they do it. My name is Gordon Drayson, a professional children's entertainer, and my guest on this episode is the wonderful Ian Adair. Now, if you've been around Magic for any length of time, you will definitely know that name. Ian is the author of hundreds of books, a lot of them on children's magic and ideas in general. He's got a lot of dove magic Encyclopaedias. I talked to Ian about so many things that we actually had to change this episode into two episodes. So this is part one. He had so much to say that we couldn't get it all into one episode. So in part one, I talk to him about his first-ever children's show when he was only 12 years of age, how he became the youngest-ever member of the Kilmarnock Magic Circle. As we all know, he joined the Supreme Magic Company and was there for many, many years, seeing a lot of his ideas being turned into products. We also talk about live animals in the show. So let's get straight to it and welcome our guest, Ian Adair.
[00:01:35.990] - Gordon Drayson
Hello, Ian. How lovely to see you.
[00:01:38.390] - Ian Adair
Hello there, Gordon. Great to be with you.
[00:01:40.690] - Gordon Drayson
Thank you so much for spending time talking to me and all of our listeners. You are a legend in children's magic. Now, I know this has been said before, but you are the sort of person that pretty much every magician who's been doing magic for any period of time will know. Would you agree with that?
[00:02:04.850] - Ian Adair
Well, that's very nice of you. You're flattering me very much so. I just look upon myself as an ideas man who deals with all branches of magic, but children's magic was at the fore. It was something that I pursued all of my magical life, and I'm now 82. Yes, I agree with what you say, if that is the case.
[00:02:29.640] - Gordon Drayson
Perfect. So let's go all the way back to the beginning. Now, how did you get started in your magic career?
[00:02:43.490] - Ian Adair
Well, that's interesting because there's no one else in the family at the time, well, any time, who were in magic or show business. Not then. My brother was later on, but much later. And so I got a Christmas present from my granny, my grandmother, and I wondered what it was, and I unwrapped it like all the other presents. And inside was a box of magic. It's actually called a cabinet of magic, believe it or not. And here it is here. It's called the "Ernest Sewell Cabinet of Conjuring." It's a little tiny box, and I think it costs seven and six pence, which is about 40p today. But inside there, there was about 15 different tricks, not children's magic tricks, of course, but tricks that you could do as a boy. And so that's really what started me off, that little box of magic. Later on, maybe six months later, I got a larger model, which was Ernest Sewell, that was the boxes of magic in the toy shops in these days. So they were available. No plastic items in there, no metal or woodwork, all paper, card and things like that, but marvellous. Now, most children chuck them away after Christmas, or they take one or two things out and the rest of it gets thrown away. Not me.
[00:04:23.540] - Ian Adair
I was really intrigued by this box of magic, so I went to the library to see if they had anything in the children's section on magic, conjuring. I asked the girl, she said, "Well, I don't really know, but it would be in 'past times'." So I went there and I found this book here. This is the very book called "The Boy's Book of Conjuring." Now, I was only five or six years of age then, and my reading wasn't that great. There was about 300 pages in this book with lots of pictures and photographs of old props. When I say props, I mean things like the appearing cane. How can you make an appearing cane? Even a grown-up, how can you make it? The vanishing cage with a budgie or a canary inside. It's all explained in here. It was really a book of explanations rather than making up tricks. Although there was a few tricks in there, card tricks and that, that really intrigued me, but that book was very good. Then I had the Foyles books, which came out at half a crown each, one book by Wilfred Johnson, one on card magic, one on conjuring.
[00:05:38.030] - Ian Adair
In the conjuring one was the Cups and Balls, and I always wanted to learn that. But of course, that took time and took years, and I got the goblets, a nice set of goblets in the end, but Bertini ones. Then I've got the books beside me, Will Dexter's book called "Everybody's Book of Magic." That was in the shops at seven and sixpence, a hardbound book full of magic and stuff and stories all about magicians. I got to know Will later in years and actually published one of his books before he passed away. The last book I got was the most easiest to read. It was called "Magic for All" by Bob Dunn. And all the book contained was pictures and illustrations of all the tricks, like a cartoon style all the way through. So that book was very easy to read and there was about 150 items in there. So all that, the box of magic plus the books, really started me off.
[00:06:48.560] - Gordon Drayson
So you had quite a busy childhood there, going through all of these books and things, and all thanks to your grandma originally.
[00:06:58.360] - Ian Adair
Well, that's right. And she did live to see me do some magic on platform at Scout evening events. I was a Scout and so free parents' evenings and all that. So she did see that. But my father, unfortunately, didn't see me do magic because he went blind very early in his life. He wasn't born blind, but he did have an accident and he was blind and died at a very young age. So yes, that's right. It was a busy time and I learned how to read more from the magic books than I did from school, believe it or not.
[00:07:45.390] - Gordon Drayson
So what do you think it was that captured your imagination right from the first box of magic? You were looking through and was it that you could do something that other people couldn't? Or was it the fact that you had a secret? Or something else?
[00:08:04.000] - Ian Adair
Well, I couldn't dance, I couldn't sing, I couldn't really tell funny jokes. And a lot of the boys, especially the boys, at school, were very good at sports. Well, I was dreadful at sports. I really was. At our school, we had rugby and cricket. It wasn't football or anything, and we had to take what we had. Cricket was a terrible game for me, walking up and down and then throwing the ball and then picking it up. I hated that. But anyway, that's yeah, I was intrigued by the fact that I could do something a little bit different. When I showed people a trick and they said, "Oh, you're clever." I really liked it. I thought this is really good. In those days, it was trying to fool the public rather than entertain them. Of course, we all know today that when we're doing shows, whether it's children shows or adult shows or close-up, they're not only going to be puzzling and baffling, the tricks, that is, or the routines, but you've got to have an entertainment basis there. You've got to be entertaining to make it work. Yes, you've got to be entertained.
[00:09:13.520] - Gordon Drayson
Totally agree. This is an entertainment art form, so entertainment should be right up there with the magic, I think.
[00:09:22.040] - Ian Adair
Yes, you're absolutely right. There's no way about it. I've seen lots of youngsters today doing tricks, flourishes with cards and juggling up and I say, "Well, you've shown me that. Show me a trick." "Oh, I can't do you a trick, but I can show you the pass." I said, "I don't want to see the pass."
[00:09:43.630] - Gordon Drayson
Yeah, I think that's a big difference, actually. With children who are getting into magic today, they're very much watching YouTube and videos and just learning moves with cards that, you know there's no tricks, it's just a move they've learned. They haven't learnt how to entertain with it.
[00:10:01.270] - Ian Adair
No, it's really flourishes and shuffles and splitting the pack with the fingers into three or four portions. I never did any of that. But of course, in our day, my day, there was no videos, no YouTube, no internet, no nothing like that. We couldn't say, "Let's go on the internet. They're exposing some tricks." We never dream of exposing tricks anyway. But it was different in these days. But we got by and that's what we accepted. There was lots of things in the... Advertised in the comics for Magic Dealers such as Ellisdons and Gamages and Hamleys, places like that, that you could contact. You can go further from just your box of magic.
[00:10:51.960] - Gordon Drayson
Right. We will come back to dealers because I know that's a huge part of your life. But let's just move on a little tiny bit. So you joined the Kilmarnock Magic Circle. So you were living in Scotland at the time?
[00:11:05.050] - Ian Adair
Yes, I was living in Scotland right until I was about 19. I was born in Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, the home of where Johnny Walker's whiskey was made. The factory was there. When you opened the windows, you could smell the fresh air of whiskey. Yes, the Kilmarnock K-M-C, it was called. I tried to get into it when I was 12 and I was told it's no 18 in those days, no junior clubs or junior sections in those days. You had to be 18. So I persevered and I persevered. One or two of the members saw me do a charity show or a church show. Then the President, Bill Milligan, he was called, he became one of my first mentors before others. He contacted me, said, "Well, we invite you to come along to one of our meetings, bring along one or two items and show the boys what you can do." So I brought along some items, including the wine and water trick, where you pour the water, then the wine, then the water. Then they all came back to a chemical-type trick, and they thought I was really very good. So I joined the KMC when I was 13, the youngest member of that society. And when I left to come to Devon, later on, they made me an honorary member. So it is still my first and beloved club, really. I owe a lot to them. Bill Milligan was a mentor to me in those days.
[00:12:42.360] - Gordon Drayson
So he sort of took you under his wing, did he and nurtured you?
[00:12:46.090] - Ian Adair
He certainly did. He was a school teacher by profession, but very clever magician, very good creative magic. He left and emigrated to Australia. He carried on teaching, but he had his own TV series in Australia with Benny the Bear. Now, it wasn't a copy of Sooty, but it was Sooty, really. But not a Teddy Bear with black ears, and it was called Benny. Every week he was on Australian television with Benny the Bear, and it became very popular. Of course, I never saw the programs, there were no videos either in those days, but he did very well. Sadly, he's passed away five years ago, but he did manage to come over and see me later in years when he had a visit to the UK with his children.
[00:13:35.530] - Gordon Drayson
So were you doing children's shows, or public shows at the time that you joined the Kilmarnock Magic Circle?
[00:13:44.860] - Ian Adair
Well, my first children's show, really, was when I was 12 years of age. Now, that's ridiculous. A child doing a magic show for children. Because you would think would take the Mickey out of you, wouldn't they? He's only one of us. You've got no authority, no respect. But I did. And I was doing things like I got a trick called 'Soft Soap,' I guess you know it, with the carton of soap powder, you put the dirty silks inside and they come out clean. I thought that was a great thing for doing in front of children. It's not really a children's trick. It's a sucker trick, but it did go down very well. I was starting to get interested in... Because I wasn't… There was no cabaret performances around my area. We had one theatre in the town and it was all booked up by plays, Agatha Christie plays and theatre productions, and you had to have an agent and all that sort of thing. I was doing shows and I put a little advert in our local Kilmarnock Standard newspaper. In those days, it was a huge paper, not the size it is today. Just the 'wanted', 'for sale' adverts and services, and I was there as 'magic man at your parties.' I didn't put children's entertainment, but I did say children's parties.
[00:15:15.360] - Gordon Drayson
Were you known as-
[00:15:16.710] - Ian Adair
We got a guinea in these days. That's one pound, one shilling. That was the fee.
[00:15:22.510] - Gordon Drayson
Wow. How long did you do? What was the length of your performance?
[00:15:27.640] - Ian Adair
That was one hour in these days, not 45 minutes like a lot of children's entertainers do today.
[00:15:35.790] - Gordon Drayson
Yeah, no, I'm an hour. I do a 45 minute show if it's three and four year olds, because I think that's about right for that age group. But above that-
[00:15:44.510] - Ian Adair
Absolutely.
[00:15:45.090] - Gordon Drayson
I do an hour.
[00:15:47.220] - Ian Adair
I quite agree with you there. A lot of children's entertainers don't tackle children at three and four. They say, "No, I don't do that. Five upwards." Well, they're missing out on a lot of shows. Not only that. Yes, you've got to change your patter. You've got to change the effects, routines that you're using, and you've got to use words that are easy for them to understand. But it can be done, and it's been done by many magicians, and there's a lot of nursery schools and playschools that book you at Christmas and all that sort of thing; they're missing out.
[00:16:22.230] - Gordon Drayson
I totally agree. They're some of my favourite shows. I do a lot of story type magic for them because I find that that works really well because they're used to stories at that age.
[00:16:32.390] - Ian Adair
Yes, that's right. Story Magic. Way back then, we'd get into sucker tricks a lot. But someone told me, one of my mentors, "You're doing too many sucker tricks in the one programme, the one show. Cut them out. You don't want to be the clever dick all the time. Don't play down on the children all the time. Let them be part of the magic and be as good as you sometimes."
[00:17:04.020] - Gordon Drayson
Yeah, I think it has much more of an effect on children if they're the ones that do the magic. I produce a bunny rabbit at the end of my show. It's something I've been doing for a long, long time, and I don't think there's many people who do it anymore, but it is one of the things that gets remembered, and it's the birthday child, or the special person who comes to help, who gets to make that. And I've had people come back to me, early 20s, who've said, "You came to my birthday party and I made a bunny rabbit at the show." And they remember that. It's a moment in history that stays with them.
[00:17:42.130] - Ian Adair
Well, Gordon, I met a lady the other day. She's about 35. She's a little girl of three. She said, "I remember you, Mr. Magic, doing my party when I was three. Can I get you for my child?" I said, "No, I'm retired now." But that's what it's like. But I get people stopping, said, "You did my party," or "My child is now 44, and he still remembers that time he produced the rabbit." It's very sad that some places don't allow rabbits to be used in shows these days, but it was a feature of my show because I always said, and we took bookings on the phone rather than, there was no internet, I said, "And of course, Peter the live rabbit, will be there and the children will be there at the end of the show to meet them." And I used to stand in the middle of a circle and I called it a magic circle. I used to go around each person, giving her a stroke, handing them a card with a picture of the rabbit on it with his telephone number on it. I was clever there. Then the birthday child, I do twice. Start with the birthday child end. Well, it's only fair. "The birthday child it's her birthday. She's going to have two more strokes. Are you going to say goodbye to Peter? Bye-bye." I never vanished the rabbit during a children's show. Someone said to me, "Oh, that would be fatal. They'd all say, 'Where's it gone?'" Unless you had two rabbits and you reproduced it. I never vanished. There's lots of vanishing props. But in a cabaret show, yes, because you could reproduce it again and it didn't really matter so much. Adults had a different view on that.
[00:19:27.730] - Gordon Drayson
So I know that you had a rabbit in your show. Did you also have doves in your children's show as well?
[00:19:36.190] - Ian Adair
Oh, yes. Well, my idol then was Channing Pollock. When I saw him on television and I met him in the end and had dinner with him in the end at the Thames television studios years and years and years later. That was the greatest day I ever met. He had marvellous, he was producing these doves. And I thought "I'd love to do all that." I know there was dove pans on the markets, draw boxes are producing, so I wasn't thinking about producing... Well, I had no idea how it was done. Then everybody thought it was marvellous. So I asked my grandfather if he'd go up to Glasgow with me on the bus so we could buy a pair of doves, because you couldn't get them in the pet shops in Kilmarnock. What I thought we did, he had, there was white java doves up there and they were one pound, a guinea each. So I went up there and one magician said to me from the Kilmarnock's, "aye get two. Make sure they're not mating or anything like that. Make sure that they're white, identical, because if you're going to vanish one during the show, you can reproduce it, or if one goes ill and is not, you've got a spare." So I've always had the two. I came back that day on the bus with a cage with the two doves. Then I wrote to Jack Hughes and got all sorts of trick items from him that had doves, including catching the dove in the air. But you needed an assistant for that with a net and the girl to hold the basket. You couldn't do that on your own.
[00:21:19.220] - Gordon Drayson
Yes, I know the trick you mean.
[00:21:20.990] - Ian Adair
Yes, that was good. Yes, catching, yes, marvellous trick. One of my favourites, because if you do it swiftly and you do it well, it's amazing that you're catching a live dove in the air and it goes into the basket and then you've got two. The basket produces the two, brings them up and it's marvellous. But yeah, that was marvellous. Doves, I had a flare for dove magic. I love dove magic. I'd seen Jimmy Rogers use magic on television, black and white, nine-inch screen. We had the very early Bush one. But he used pigeons. He didn't use doves. The first time I saw doves was Channing Pollock.
[00:22:08.270] - Gordon Drayson
Yeah. Jack Hughes had some amazing props. I own a few Jack Hughes props, but I also have the volumes of Jack Hughes' books that Derek Lever put out. There's just some amazing, especially dove magic in there. It's really fascinating.
[00:22:26.700] - Ian Adair
Yes, well he was a pioneer of that. He had 'Dove Through Glass,' which was really not a copy, but it was an adaption of Arrowsmith's 'Glass Penetration' using the same principle, but Jack made it for a dove and it was oval shaped and it stood upright. Yeah, that was good. I bought that, but that was years later. But Jack, of course, I got to know, been to his place in Collingdale many times, saw him in his workshops. Of course, we haven't talked about Edwin Hooper yet, but Edwin Hooper worked for Jack as well and stayed there. I know quite a bit about Jack, yes.
[00:23:12.590] - Gordon Drayson
So let's just go back a bit then. So age 13, you joined the Kilmarnock Magic Circle. Then a few years later, you're on TV presenting.
[00:23:24.420] - Ian Adair
Well, yes, STV is Scottish television. It covers the whole of the country. That's not UK, but the whole of Scotland. We're fairly big. And I joined STV when I was 16 and I was a presenter on camera every day. When I used to come out of the studio, people would ask for my autograph. They would recognise me. They don't do that anymore. But the thing is, in those days, a presenter used to come on and you saw the face of the presenter dressed in the bow tie: "The next programme is going to be This is Your Life. Later on, we're going to do so and so and so." Nowadays, it's a lot of voiceovers. You don't see the personalities. Also, I used to read out the football results. "Airdrie 3, Kilmarnock 4," used to raise your voice a bit for the winner. Did you notice that I made Kilmarnock win?
[00:24:22.250] - Gordon Drayson
I was just going to say you made Kilmarnock the winner there.
[00:24:25.310] - Ian Adair
Rangers 1, Celtic 1. So that's even. Rangers 1, Celtic 1. So I used to do that as well. I was interviewed on programmes up there, a programme called 'Here and Now' that came on every week doing a bit of magic. I used a Si-Stebbins deck to do a mental trick. I produced a dove in a dove pan cracking the egg, but there was no children's magic. In those days, nobody did children's magic, as we call it, props made for children's magic on television.
[00:25:03.340] - Gordon Drayson
Right.
[00:25:03.690] - Ian Adair
And they still don't. They mainly use adult's magic and turn it into a child's trick. They don't come on with too many things. Show it, turn it around, do this, do that. It's too childish for the adults are watching as well.
[00:25:20.890] - Gordon Drayson
Yeah. It's also an interactive type of entertainment, isn't it? You need the feedback from the children.
[00:25:27.700] - Ian Adair
Well, that's right. I mean, I did a video once where I was demonstrating something and had to say, "pretend there's children there. What that? Did you shout?" Because you normally don't do that in the show. They shout out, "The end's come off your wand." "Did something fall away from my wand? I can't see it." "Yes." "Oh here it is. Thanks for telling me." There's no one there. I don't like it. I like the live shows. I really do. They're the best ones because you get the reaction.
[00:26:01.400] - Gordon Drayson
So how did you get to be on TV? How did that come about?
[00:26:05.770] - Ian Adair
Well, there was a piece in the newspaper. I was linked up with Hayley Mills, the film star, who made at 10, 11 years of age, a film called 'Tiger Bay' in Cardiff, a murder film. She was brilliant. She won an award for it. I was doing shows around the area in Glasgow and all that. The studios were in Glasgow, and the newspaper put "the boy and the girl," and I've still got the cutting here, "two youngsters who are going to go far in the world of show business." Then a producer from STV got me, it couldn't get Hayley Mills, but it got me in there. I've always said Hayley Mills ended up as being a big big star when I wasn't. A household name, and yet I haven't been a household name. But yes, that's how I got on there. But it gave me... I've been on television over 200 times in my lifetime, Blue Peter, etc, all these things. But it helped me because I was in and out of studios up there and I knew what it was. I knew what a film manager was and the gallery was and I knew all about the different angles of cameras and the lights on the cameras. I got into that, yes.
[00:27:25.260] - Gordon Drayson
You obviously are known around the world for your publishing of books. You've published an awful lot of them. But the first book that you ever wrote that was published, I understand that was published by Supreme before you had anything to do with them.
[00:27:44.400] - Ian Adair
It was called 'Adair's Ideas.' That just smooth... It's quite a nice title, isn't it? It's almost the same letters in ideas as there is in Adair, A-Is and all that. What I did was I sent... I got to know there was such a place as Supreme Magic Company when I was in Kilmarnock. One of the members, Bill Milligan, my mentor, gave me a catalogue and said, "Well, I want it back because there's a couple of my ideas that he's marketed. Edwin Hooper, he's called—and write to him and he'll send you a catalogue." So I did. But I wrote little ideas since I was about 12, bought a typewriter when I was 12, new. A very cheap one, but a very nice little one, so I could write to magazines rather than handwrite them. I wrote and sent Edwin Hooper little bits and pieces now and again, and he had enough to make it into that book. Later on, still in Kilmarnock, I came down to a convention where he was actually showing with a dealer stand, and my book came out on that convention, 'Adair's Ideas,' so I saw it being published. It was only a thin book, but it was my first one. My first of 331 published books. It's a lot of books. A lot of people don't believe that. But I did put them all on my Facebook page one at a time a way back, a year or so ago, to prove that there they are. Believe it or not, I don't have one copy of every book, but nearly. But there we are, and they're published in different countries. But that was over years and years of writing.
[00:29:39.110] - Gordon Drayson
So that was how your writing started then. But you met up with Edwin at the SAMS convention, got chatty with him.
[00:29:48.820] - Ian Adair
I was still in Kilmarnock.
[00:29:50.430] - Gordon Drayson
He offered you a job, is that right?
[00:29:52.770] - Ian Adair
Yeah, that's right. My first convention was Kilmarnock Magic Circle, from the Kilmarnock Magic Circle. It was called the SAMS Convention, Scottish Association, Magical Societies. It's in a different resort every year. This year it was Greenock. And I was 14 or 15. My mother said to Bill Milligan my mentor, "Look after him. He's my son. He's never been away from home and he's going to be away for a weekend." Bill said, "Yes, I'll make sure he's all right." Bruce Garrison was the guest lecturer with all his magic. Great. He even had films, a film screen up showing you moves on there. There was no video clips on video footage and digital stuff then. We thought that was marvellous. I got involved there and I went every year and I saw... I met Edwin Hooper. I spent more time in Edwin Hooper's dealer stand, it's a separate room, than I did in any other event during the convention. I got to know him quite well. In fact, I entered the competition, they had the Shield competition for the best act, and I had my dove act, entered that, and I won the Shield in 1958. I've got the miniature still. You had to give the big one back. I got the award there. But yes, he didn't ask me to join right away. But he did say, "You've got a flare for magic dealing, because I've read bits and pieces in 'Oscar Oswald's Magical Digest,' which is a magazine that came out every month, and 'Abracadabra' by Goodlive, (which is known as Abra.) And I see that you've got different ideas that are coming out all the time. You've written this book for me. I'll get back to you one day." And he did. He wrote to me. We didn't have a telephone at home. We didn't have anything at home, no car, no telephone, no refrigerator, nothing like that. These were times that we didn't have these things. People take it for granted these days.
[00:32:24.410] - Gordon Drayson
They do indeed.
[00:32:24.860] - Ian Adair
There you are. That's life. He said, "Why don't you come and join me? Because I'm looking for someone to build up the business. I've been in the business for three years now and it's going very well. Let me know." So I wrote back and I said, "I'd love to join you." I didn't even ask my mother if that's all right. I told them what sort of wage I would like. I found out a very reasonable wage for my age group and he accepted. I told my mother, I said, "I've got a job," a first job at about 16, 17. She said, "What is it?" I said, "It's a magical dealer." She said, "What's that?" I said, "It's someone who works for a firm who makes tricks for magicians." She said, "That's not a real job." That's what she said. It wasn't a real job. And I said, "Well, that's what I'm going to do." And I did.
[00:33:37.300] - Gordon Drayson
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[00:34:59.370] - Gordon Drayson
Right, that's it from me. Let's get back to hearing what Ian has to say.
[00:35:06.760] - Ian Adair
They saw me off at the railway station at Kilmarnock, and I waved goodbye, grandmother and all, who gave the present, blowing kisses, and I had great big cases. I had sent on stuff already in a trunk. Believe it or not, the train left Kilmarnock and then went back to Glasgow, which is further up, and then went right through the station again. That's the way it went. Ridiculous, but they weren't there the second time, but it took me all the way down to Devon. And that was another matter. That was horrendous.
[00:35:39.450] - Gordon Drayson
Well, I mean, you couldn't have really moved further away, could you? You've gone all the way from Scotland, all the way down to Devon, which is the extremes of the United Kingdom.
[00:35:49.260] - Ian Adair
I've never travelled so much in all my life. Five different changes: Carlisle, this, Taunton, Barnstaple, Biddeford. Maybe 6, 7 different... I'd started off in the evening leaving Kilmarnock and arrived in Biddeford, North Devon, never heard of it. Thought it was Bide-ford because there was no dashes in between, but it's called Bid-de-ford, by de Ford. By the Ford. I got to know all that and arrived in Biddeford in the morning off the train and I had to get the bus from Barnstaple because it didn't go into Biddeford. I remember it well. I still remember it.
[00:36:40.970] - Gordon Drayson
He put you to work straight away, didn't he? Straight down to the post office.
[00:36:45.150] - Ian Adair
I walked up that hill because it's a very steep hill, is High Street.
[00:36:48.780] - Gordon Drayson
I've been there.
[00:36:49.470] - Ian Adair
I didn't know what I was coming to. I thought it might be a joke shop as well with fancy dress. But no, it wasn't, because Edwin Hooper wasn't that sort of shop. He was a proper magic dealer manufacturing his exclusive items, not buying stuff like they do today, wholesale, where a lot of the dealers sell the same things, like Silver Sceptre. You can get it there, here, there, all different prices. It was completely different. When I arrived, there was no sign that said Supreme Magic. It was a three-storey building, but I knew it was number 64. I knocked at the door and he opened the door and Edwin said, "Hello. You're Ian?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Let me give you cases, put them in." He said, "You're just in time. It's a Saturday morning. The mail is going out. It's got to go out by lunchtime because I think they close at lunchtime. So could you help me to get all the parcels down to the post office? I've got them all tied up with string, so that you can put them around your neck. I've got another one." And I had to do that, and I'd travelled miles. And that was my first meeting of Edwin. And then the second meeting when we came back was, "I want to show you a trick," and I opened my case. "Here's my latest trick. It's called Dressing Doll." And I showed him the small book, which I bought in Woolworths, a dressing doll book, which I had faked up and showed him the dressing doll, where the clothes vanished and then reappeared in the book with her wearing it. And he was astounded. He said, "Marvellous. We'll make that. Much bigger, and silk screen it. And my goodness gracious, that's really good." And we did make it and we sold 4 or 5,000 of these over the years, different batches, different batches of 2 or 300 at a time. And it was the best selling trick for years. Not so good today. It's not PC so much the girl with the underwear. People don't... They're still around, but it's not a trick that I would do. But it was a great trick because these sort of books were in all the shops in Woolworths and places like that. Stickers going on books, dressing the dolls, colouring books. All the children knew them. It was a great trick.
[00:39:17.100] - Gordon Drayson
Yeah, there are definitely tricks of their time, aren't there?
[00:39:21.660] - Ian Adair
Oh, yes, there's a lot of tricks have changed today.
[00:39:24.460] - Gordon Drayson
I was going to say-
[00:39:26.800] - Ian Adair
Billy Bantor. They don't know who Billy Bantor is.
[00:39:29.210] - Gordon Drayson
No.
[00:39:29.530] - Ian Adair
When Hitler came out, they were doing tricks for Hitler, pictures of Hitler during the war and the coronation of the King before the Queen took over, coronation tricks devised for them, for children's shows. But people used them again at every coronation: crown jewels, torn papers to the Union Jack, all that thing sort of thing came out again because it was very topical, even for the latest coronation of Prince Charles. So yes, things have changed, but I don't know if it's changed for the worse. I think I got out of children's magic at the right time.
[00:40:11.440] - Gordon Drayson
You were there for the heyday.
[00:40:12.600] - Ian Adair
I think so because you have to get liability insurance. You didn't have that. You couldn't touch the child. You could hardly shake the hand. You must dress them up to... No, it's all that stuff. "You touched my child." There was none of that sort of thing. It has changed. There's no doubt about it. I know someone called Cuddles the Clown, and he lives in America. He said, "I still cuddle the children." I said, "We're not allowed to do that in Britain." He said, "What?!"
[00:40:48.120] - Gordon Drayson
You've got to be so careful. Yeah, really careful.
[00:40:52.560] - Ian Adair
Oh, yes. I quite understand. Health and safety and all that's come in and just stuff like that. You've got to be careful, yes.
[00:41:01.610] - Gordon Drayson
It's a different world. Anyone who's my sort of age and grew up knowing Supreme will know the address 64 High Street, Biddeford, Devon, off the top of their head. They don't need to look it up. But it was a huge, huge business. I have no idea how many lines you had, but it must be thousands that you were selling. Because I remember the catalogues. The catalogues were that thick-
[00:41:30.180] - Ian Adair
They were.
[00:41:30.450] - Gordon Drayson
-and they were full. I've got one just up here, in fact, probably the last one that came out. But you don't see catalogues, anything like that these days. Everything's on the internet.
[00:41:41.190] - Ian Adair
Well, you don't see catalogues full stop today.
[00:41:44.270] - Gordon Drayson
At all. No.
[00:41:44.540] - Ian Adair
It's all on web. 10,000 items we had over the years.
[00:41:48.580] - Gordon Drayson
Wow.
[00:41:48.990] - Ian Adair
And a lot of them are manufactured by us. Over the years, we kept bringing out new tricks, supplementary catalogues. We had the Magigram, of course, to advertise in. That's our magazine. Yes, it was tremendous the amount. And the building, although it was 64, it was really 64, 65, but we never put a 65 on it because we bought the building, transferred the two buildings into one, 24 rooms on each one, built another area at the back, a print department as well, and a silk screen, a sort of dying silk area right at the very back, and a car park at the very back of that. Then we had a place at the very top of High Street, which was a furniture store, which was the size of a small Tesco. And that was taken over as well.
[00:42:45.720] - Gordon Drayson
I mean, it was just a huge business. It really was a factory, wasn't it?
[00:42:50.000] - Ian Adair
Well, Edwin Hooper was a businessman. We had a good chemistry. I wasn't a businessman. I was an ideas man, a design man, demonstrator. I helped to manufacture things that were easy, but we got on very well. He started that business with someone that was a representative of a grocery firm, going round grocery shops, saying, "How many do you want to becoming a millionaire?" That's what he was when he retired. People used to laugh and say, "Oh, you'll never make it." That's people in the town of Biddeford doing that, selling tricks to magicians. Even his father said, "you'll never..." He was a plumber, "why don't you be a plumber like me or something?" No, he really had the drive to go ahead. He was a good businessman, but he was a good performer. I mean, he was performing the coronation time. The agent was Harrods up in London and the Queen's coronation. And he met Percy Press and Oscar Oswald, the Tottham Punch and Judy. So he was well into... And Jack Hughes and all that. He met all these people up there and that's how he came back and then he started the firm. Do you know where the word Supreme Magic, how it came in? I bet you don't.
[00:44:12.410] - Gordon Drayson
No, I don't.
[00:44:13.750] - Ian Adair
It was before the firm started, he didn't have a car. He was on a bus and he looked out the bus when it was stopped and there was a van, it said 'Supreme Laundry.' It was a laundry van. "Supreme, that's a good name." So it was 'Supreme Magic.' He didn't want to call it Edwin's Magic Shop. He didn't want to make it small. He knew it was going to be big one day. So 'Edwin's Magic Dealing Shop' was no good. It was a joke and magic. He didn't want jokes anyway. He wanted something that was more substantial. That's how he came about that. Of course, it became limited later on and became bigger. Sixty-four staff at one time, full-time.
[00:44:59.950] - Gordon Drayson
Wow.
[00:45:00.550] - Ian Adair
People getting wages, people getting holidays, cleaners, two cleaners that clean the premises every day. No magic dealer today has that. They all had their own jobs. The office girls, someone was on VAT towards the end. Someone was on a computer when we had computers at the end, getting the stock control, showing where the stuff was on the shelves. We had all that. I was in a showroom, and office with an office place. Any callers that came would come in and I would demonstrate things they we're wanting to see, or I would work in there writing up adverts or instruction sheets for new items. These were the days.
[00:45:43.590] - Gordon Drayson
Just amazing. I can't comprehend how big of an operation it is. When you look at businesses today that are magic, you look at somewhere like 'Alakazam' that's got a really nice building, but it's tiny compared to Supreme. It's just amazing.
[00:46:04.230] - Ian Adair
That's right. You're right. You see, I think, Alakazam sells to the public, don't they?
[00:46:10.110] - Gordon Drayson
I don't think they want to. I think they're ideally for magicians.
[00:46:13.750] - Ian Adair
Havn't they got a shop window? Have they not got a shop window?
[00:46:16.760] - Gordon Drayson
They don't have a shop window. They're on an industrial estate, but you can walk in and they do have a showroom. So if you knew it was there, you could go in and buy something.
[00:46:28.280] - Ian Adair
I see. I've never been there. Well, I've had no reason to go there because-
[00:46:31.580] - Gordon Drayson
Oh, it's beautiful. It's lovely. One of the questions I had about Supreme is a lot of the products that they sold were cardboard screen printed which-
[00:46:40.940] - Ian Adair
Now, you see, that is something I don't like hearing. Everybody said, "Oh, Supreme Magic sell nothing but cardboard." We sold every conceivable material. We had 26 leather wallets of different kinds, more than Roy Roth, who, that's all he sold. We had metal workers, two of them, making tin tubes, metal tubes, brass nut release. We had a cabinet maker, Johnny Hawkin, working on a daily basis with three people, spraying, sanding down, making props, wooden props, big range. Then we had the silk screen flat cardboard items, which a lot of the children's entertainers loved because some of them were feature tricks, some of them weren't, but some of them, most of them packed flat and you don't want to go to a venue or a show with everything that's bulky. You want things that are soft and light in weight and easy to put together. Inexpensive as well.
[00:47:40.950] - Gordon Drayson
I think that answers my question. I was going to say, some of these printed cardboard props are just magnificent. They're so beautiful. They're really vibrant. My question was going to be, was that a decision made so that they are going to be light and portable and easy to carry. Or was it that it wouldn't have worked in another material? Because that's something as well. You had envelopes, right?
[00:48:09.680] - Ian Adair
You're right. Can you imagine dressing doll being made of wood, plywood?
[00:48:13.270] - Gordon Drayson
No I can't.
[00:48:13.540] - Ian Adair
It's not a book anymore.
[00:48:14.300] - Gordon Drayson
It wouldn't have worked.
[00:48:15.310] - Ian Adair
You show children a book. "That's not a book." You can tell it's wood. There's certain things have got to be made. When you're showing picture cards... I mean, playing cards are made of card, aren't they?
[00:48:28.310] - Gordon Drayson
Yeah.
[00:48:29.150] - Ian Adair
No one says "they're made of cardboard aren't they?" No. Well picture cards, no matter the size, they've got to be made of card and hinge boxes that fold flat. They've got to be hinged together like that. It's too cumbersome the other way. Of course, in these days, a lot of the people that belittled them were the other dealers because they couldn't make these items. They couldn't afford to get them silk screened in the quantity that we had and to get them made up. It was all done by stencils and squeegee right through. It wasn't photographic on the carousel like they do it today, silk screen. Silk screens are dying out, really. But at the end of the day, we ended up with some very lovely looking props. And so what? They lasted 25 years and it cost 30 shillings. You know, something like 'Farmyard Frolics.' Get another one. Your tyres don't last 30, 40 years. Get another pair. I mean, magicians, they're very mean. They expect things... "They're worn out! 40 years later and it's worn out. I can't believe it. I've used it over and over and over again in and out of cases without even packing them properly."
[00:49:50.660] - Gordon Drayson
I think probably the problem that some magicians would have with these cardboard props is that they can't replace them today because they're not made in the same way that they were. Even though they've lasted a good chunk of time, you can't now replace them easily.
[00:50:10.820] - Ian Adair
Absolutely. Hal Taylor used to tell me, "Ian, if you like a trick very much, buy three of them, because one day it'll go out of stock."
[00:50:19.980] - Gordon Drayson
Yeah.
[00:50:20.270] - Ian Adair
And he was right. Not only that, firms do go out of business generally. Things that you wanted years ago, you can't get them now. You can't go to Tesco and say, "You don't sell that anymore." "Oh, dear." No, they don't care. Well, that's just a way of life. When you go to Lidl's one week, next week it's not there. You say to the manager, "You had some lovely wallets there. Where are they?" "Well, that was last week. We don't have them now. Well, that's your fault. You should have bought them at the time." But the thing is, normally you get good wear out of it if you look after something. A lot of magicians, including Children's Entertainers, and I'm not writing them down. I was one myself. I love them. They don't look after the props. Collectors do. They put them in wrapping. They mustn't get a scratch on it. "It must be mint condition. I'm not going to perform it." "But that's what they're made for. They're made for performers to entertain people, not to store away." "Well, no, I've got three or four of these." "Why do you need three or four?" Well, I'm a collector and it must be mint condition."
[00:51:31.210] - Gordon Drayson
I think I'm a little bit-
[00:51:32.650] - Ian Adair
I'm not a running down collectors.
[00:51:33.930] - Gordon Drayson
I'm a little bit in the middle because I do like collecting some props that are either very rare or something that I just want to own. But more importantly, if I've got a prop that I'm using in a show, it will be stored carefully. You know the dream boxes that you take out of the bags?
[00:51:55.330] - Ian Adair
Yes, the ones with the ribbons.
[00:51:57.130] - Gordon Drayson
Yeah. So I store that in my roll on, of which I got the plans for from Supreme, come back to that, and they go back into the original packaging that it came in.
[00:52:10.880] - Ian Adair
Oh, that's good.
[00:52:11.390] - Gordon Drayson
When it goes back in the box, it's protected.
[00:52:13.570] - Ian Adair
Good thinking. You're talking about that trick, a Supreme trick in 1954 called 'Orchids for My Lady,' sold one that folded out like exactly what... Not made of glitter like they are now. No paper bag. It just folds flat. Just like the card box that you pulled out with a ribbon and the four sides of the playing cards made a box. It is a Supreme item.
[00:52:38.320] - Ian Adair
It was never credited...
[00:52:39.660] - Gordon Drayson
It's not surprising.
[00:52:40.320] - Ian Adair
as that. It came out in Japan.
[00:52:42.270] - Gordon Drayson
I reckon pretty much every magician ever has something that was either from Supreme or inspired by a Supreme product at some point.
[00:52:51.380] - Ian Adair
The only thing is, Gordon, that you ask someone who's 25, 30, they've never heard of Supreme. They don't even know it existed because Supreme folded in 1993, and it's a lot of water's flown under the bridge since then to 2023. A lot of people have been born, a lot of entertainers have come up, children's entertainers included. So a lot of these people don't like or they're not interested in the history of magic. They don't read the history books about magicians of long years ago or magic dealers of the time. They're not interested in that a lot. Some are.
[00:53:34.130] - Gordon Drayson
No, it's a shame. It's a real shame. I mentioned the roll on box plans that I bought from Supreme.
[00:53:42.390] - Ian Adair
Yes.
[00:53:43.200] - Gordon Drayson
Just for your interest, I made the roll on box with my dad in my parents' kitchen when I was, I would have been about 14 years of age. And there was an error in the plans, in fact. We figured it out after we made the mistake. But I can't remember exactly what it was. One of the sides was... I can't remember. But I still have and I still use to this day that exact same box. It's been around the world.
[00:54:19.760] - Ian Adair
Oh, marvellous.
[00:54:20.360] - Gordon Drayson
It's had several bits replaced. It's been painted several times, but it's the exact same box that me and my dad made when I was 14 years of age.
[00:54:28.540] - Ian Adair
You bought the plans rather than buying the prop itself?
[00:54:31.800] - Gordon Drayson
We bought the plans because I wanted to know exactly how it was made so that if I ever needed to fix it, I knew what I needed to do. But more importantly, I wanted to make sure that it was branded for me. I wanted to make sure it was-
[00:54:50.550] - Ian Adair
Customized to you. Customized to you.
[00:54:52.760] - Gordon Drayson
Exactly.
[00:54:53.050] - Ian Adair
Well, that's true because the ones we sold were usually bright red with a flash on it, with a black top. Very good for children's shows. Terry Herbert bought one and used it. Good for anybody who buys, a table. But if you do want something with your name designed on the front and a logo with a rabbit, you've got to have that either... You cannot start painting on top of spray paint. It doesn't work. Sign writers will tell you celloid and ordinary paint, it makes it all bubble up. We know all that. What's the use of buying a prop and then changing it into something else like that?
[00:55:39.830] - Gordon Drayson
Yes.
[00:55:40.120] - Ian Adair
You can always put a banner on the front or a sign that clips on, that can be removed magnetically or it can be clipped on. There's ways of doing it. But I know one or two magicians who used that prop, the roll on table, the other way around, the audience saw the shelves.
[00:56:01.580] - Gordon Drayson
Oh ok.
[00:56:01.990] - Ian Adair
It's all to do with storybooks. It was all books inside there. She took one, 'Alice in Wonderland.'
[00:56:08.820] - Gordon Drayson
That's a nice idea.
[00:56:09.840] - Ian Adair
It was like, this is a little library. It's the only time I've ever seen the roll on table back to front, front it facing the audience.
[00:56:17.950] - Gordon Drayson
It's a lovely idea.
[00:56:18.750] - Ian Adair
Yeah, because you get the extra shelf, don't you? You can put it on the bottom.
[00:56:24.240] - Gordon Drayson
In fact, I made another one.
[00:56:25.520] - Ian Adair
I think the top slanted-.
[00:56:28.180] - Gordon Drayson
Yeah, it did. It had an extra bit of wood about this sort of size. About two inches high, and there's a little slot on the side pieces, and you could slot it on so that the top was angled towards the audience so you could put cards on it and things.
[00:56:45.000] - Ian Adair
Very good. I don't think that was in the plans, but the prop ones were made like that with a slanting top, like you're saying. Actually, that's how it was supplied. It had a black felt top, I think.
[00:56:59.720] - Gordon Drayson
Yep.
[00:56:59.970] - Ian Adair
I remember that. You could put it up like that and the wedge would hold the cards, the silk screen, cardboard cards at an angle for children to see.
[00:57:09.420] - Gordon Drayson
And a wooden box, beautiful carpentry. I got to see them. The one that my dad and I made is definitely not the same quality.
[00:57:17.530] - Ian Adair
Did you have a cover for yours?
[00:57:20.400] - Gordon Drayson
Yes, I had one made from an upholsterer. They made me a bag. I wanted a full covered bag. I actually put the box into the bag, so it's got a bottom to it and then it comes up and over. So I have to carry it. I don't use the wheels to move from between. The wheels are there for moving on stage or when I'm performing, not for transporting.
[00:57:42.010] - Ian Adair
We actually supplied it with a bag with a handle coming through the slot.
[00:57:47.800] - Gordon Drayson
I remember.
[00:57:48.600] - Ian Adair
Now, it wasn't very good if it was teaming down with rain outside.
[00:57:52.480] - Gordon Drayson
Yep.
[00:57:52.650] - Ian Adair
I don't think it was waterproof, but it helped not to scratch it or, when you had it folded down, you had a cover on it.
[00:58:03.230] - Gordon Drayson
And that's why I had the bottom of it.
[00:58:04.380] - Ian Adair
Just like when I used to come in with the-.
[00:58:06.080] - Gordon Drayson
The bag with the bottom. That's why I had that.
[00:58:07.940] - Gordon Drayson
Oh, right.
[00:58:08.360] - Gordon Drayson
So you didn't have anything coming up.
[00:58:10.460] - Ian Adair
Ah right. And when I used to come in with the rabbit, it was in a basket, but I had a cover. I didn't want children saying "there's a rabbit in there," with a basket. It just looked like a basket. It didn't look like a basket. It just looked like another item I was bringing in.
[00:58:27.020] - Gordon Drayson
Another prop, yeah.
[00:58:27.590] - Ian Adair
It really was the live rabbit.
[00:58:29.480] - Gordon Drayson
Nice.
[00:58:29.840] - Ian Adair
Because it wasn't to make its appearance to later in the show.
[00:58:34.700] - Gordon Drayson
Wouldn't have been a surprise if they knew it was there.
[00:58:38.160] - Ian Adair
No, that's right. No one ever said, "No, we don't want a rabbit, by the way." When I used to say, "and there's a live rabbit in the show." "Oh, lovely." When I used to go to birthday parties and look at the tea area with all the sandwiches, sometimes a birthday cake with a rabbit and a hat. The mother had it made by a baker—with it holding a wand because I'd mentioned the rabbit in the hat and all that. Very good.
[00:59:11.810] - Gordon Drayson
So that was Ian Adair, a fascinating person to talk to with a host of ideas. Remember, this is only part one. We have part two to come. I think what struck me most about my discussion with Ian was the dressing the doll trick and how it was of its time and how it just probably wouldn't work today. The method could be used for other tricks, so maybe we should be looking at reinventing old ideas and making them into new and modern tricks. I also found it interesting about the impact he's had on family and children's entertainers, in fact, all entertainers. There are a lot of his ideas that are either being used by these people or have been inspired by some of his ideas, and I think we owe a lot of gratitude to Ian for this. It was also very interesting learning how Supreme got its name. I had no idea of that story. So in part two, we are going to talk to Ian about the story behind Farmyard Frolics, a favourite of children's entertainers. We're also going to understand the importance of reading and understanding trick instructions and being able to springboard off them, and also finding inspiration for new tricks during the night. Ian has lots to say, and that's why we've had to go into a second episode. Thank you so much for joining us on FACE: The Podcast. There are a few ways that you can actually help and contribute to the community for FACE: The Podcast. First of all, we have a Facebook group where we talk and discuss about episodes and family and children's entertainment in general. We also have the YouTube channel, and it would be great if you could leave some comments on the YouTube channel under the episodes, or on your favourite podcast player. The more comments and reviews we get, the more will be found by other children's entertainers and this community can just grow larger and stronger. You can also visit the website, facethepodcast.com, where you can watch all the past episodes, listen to the episodes, and even vote and suggest future guests. So if you want to be a guest in a future episode, or you know someone that you think would be a great person to be a guest, then you can suggest them on the website. It's very easy to do. Just give us a few details about it and leave the rest to us. You can go and have a look, see who's already been suggested and vote them up as well. The people with the highest votes are the people I'll be contacting first. Thank you for joining me. I look forward to seeing you in part two of Ian Adair. Until then, my name is Gordon, and this is Family And Children's Entertainers: The Podcast, otherwise known as FACE: The Podcast. I'll see you in the next episode. Goodbye.
